My world

All I ever expected from a man was a caring , tender word.
Now I cut the grass instead.

Nightmares

In 'De techniek van het lijden', you wrote that in our modern world, 'man is a nightmare between other nightmares'. That 'true love and true humanity can only be played, acted.' And, maybe to be sure we got the message, that modern man 'flies like a nightmare between the sleaping and sedated, without ever being sure about inhabiting their dreams'.

I found that last image to be pretty disturbing and depressing, I also don't believe it's true. You don't seem to believe 'real', 'sincere' contact between people is ever possible, 'eternal love' can only exist as unfullfilled love and when people interact, they're always playing, fighting, seducing each other, without ever being completely true.
I think it's a belief that underlies a lot of what you write, and makes your novels both very funny and extremely sad. I wonder if it's really your personal belief though. If it is, you do seem to lead a very social life for someone who doesn't believe in sincere interaction. Is this because you really love the seducing game, are always looking for new material, or are secretely hoping to do find someone for whom you can be more than a man who cuts the grass??

I wonder if your believes about human interaction would change if you ever got children.

Hordijk

As often you first get an answer by another guest on this blog.

You say that novels, written in mind with the underlying belief you describe , can be very funny. In the same way life can be funny as well, and therefore you can still lead social life. As long as you're able to minimalize daily life stressors, which is possible as a succesfull writer, you can permit yourself to lead a social life with a minimum of negative emotions. (Although mr Grunberg might note that he has a lot of daily stressors. Well, people often get used to their situation and strive for a better better situation.)

I wonder how you see the 'real, sincere contact' between people. Is there a difference with exchanging one thing for another, e.g. be nice for your wife and she keeps on washing your shirts, be interested in your colleagues and keep a good position on the workfloor, give money to a hooker and you get sex?

Sometimes my interest in a colleague is played. Sometimes I'm really interested in colleagues, because I can learn something. How sincere is that?

Hordijk

In addition to what Mr. Allemagne wrote:
Playing can be very sincere. To act as if doesn’t necessarily mean that you are insincere, that you are deceiving another person.
I love my godson deeply but a couple of days ago of mother of two pointed out to me that holding your own children is incomparable to any other human interaction. She was not the first to tell me this and who am I to doubt her words?
However, the relationship between me and my godson is of course based on a different set of rules than my relationship with adults.
And is it really wise to strive for sincerity in social interaction?
I’m not sure what “true love” is, and I’m skeptical of anybody who doesn’t double-check his own emotions. Which doesn’t mean that I’m incapable of saying “I love you.” Sometimes I say it and I even believe it.
Social life is very much part of my work. Without it I would be a lesser writer. So whenever we meet and we engage in a conversation and you think I’m charming, witty, friendly, kind and entertaining, please keep in mind: I’m working.

Being sincere means doing what one feels is the truth (from the perspective of the sender). But since sent information seldom or never arrives as intended everything we do is lying or being insincere to some extent (seen from the perspective of the recipient). Sincerety is more of a truthfulness against the own conscience. Unfortunately everything is bound to a certain moment in time. So even from the perspective of the sender a feeling, a deed etc. can be lying and truth. Objective truth, and in this context sincerety, could be a nice thing, though.

With regard to children I always think of the possibilty that I could be a mother who doesn't love her child AND isn't very good at acting. So I'd rather not give it a try at the moment.

Juliane

No mother loves her children 24/7.
If you want my child just let me know.

Arnon

When are you not working? When is it really you? And how do you now that at that specific moment you're not acting? I'm acting all the time and I'm good at it, but it's sometimes so exhausting and it makes me forget who I am for real (if one can know that).

arnon

how can you assert "no mother loves her children 24/7"???

Mieke

Why not discover the world of nice talkative gardeners?
On second thought: maybe you hate them as much as hairdressers, but then again, maybe not...

Veerle

The best thing that can happen to you is when you forget the "real Veerle".
I promise you, when I kiss you I won't be acting. My tongue is incapable of telling lies.

Diana

Any mother would like to get rid of her children from time to time.
Don’t fool yourself. It doesn’t mean that she is not a good mother.

Jeanette

A talkative gardener? That sounds like a contradiction. Gardening in essence is a job you perform in silence and I like to keep it that way. But don't worry , I am well beyond the bitterness Arnon described. I like my current life.

Juliane

I agree with Arnon. The mother who realises that she can fail are the best mums.

is the best mum

Jeanette

I lost my trust in men a long time ago and I 'm afraid it's beyond repair. That's why I'm single and why I remain single.

Mieke

If that's the case then please stop hitting on me.

@Mieke
Who ever told you that men always should be trusted ? Or that you should trust men blindly ? Men, probably? (Et pour les hommes, la même chose - by the way).
But you can trust Arnon.

Grunberg wrote: 'when I kiss you I won't be acting. My tongue is incapable of telling lies'

That's probably more or less what I'm thinking about. You seem very interested in the fact that people are 'manipulators', you wrote 'The Machiavellist', you've created characters that want to 'produce reality', like other people produce plays.. No doubt people are true manipulators, we are social creatures after all, but I like the idea of the direct, sincere emotion from one person to another, though, as others have pointed out, it's really hard to define 'sincere', and you can never be to sure, even about your own emotions..

I think I thought about kids, because they don't seem to be that good at the manipulation game, although even that is questionable, the first cry for a breast with milk good be considered manipulation.
Maybe it is wise to let go of this hung-up of sincerety and just enjoy the game, and the fact that someone cuts your grass, is friendy or makes you dinner.

It's just that I'v seen all those Disney-movies as a kid, I think they really screwed me up..

guilt kills mother

Mieke,
'The mother who realises that she can fail is the best mum.'
Not being the best mum 24/7 does not make a mother a failure,
it makes her human.
When she thinks she fails, she thinks she is guilty.

Hordijk

Manipulation is not necessarily a bad thing.
Education without manipulation is almost impossible; raising children is another example of manipulating for the good.
Even sincerity doesn’t exclude manipulation; you can say sincerely “I love you” and still manipulating the other person.
Disney changed. A movie like “Ratatouille” is not as sweet as the ones you saw --very likable movie by the way.
Most kids are extremely skilled and shameless manipulators.

Kids

Yes, they certainly are. I also enjoyed Ratatouille, i thought the food-critic was brilliant.

Mieke

Ha, I see how you interpreted my comment.
What I meant was that there are men that cut your grass and talk nice, without having to marry them.

About trusting men: I don't know about your story. There are different sorts of trust I believe.
I trust the gardener to replace the 14 m2 grass every three years, cut the trees, choose shrubs that don't die on me within two months and I trust him to rip me off because of it. He never betrays my trust.

Mieke / Jeanette

I thought my own views on relationships and parenthood were pretty distorted, but after reading your comments I realize... it can be a lot worse.

Batta

For once I wholeheartedly agree. I'm runnning a hospital for the mentally ill. As if I have not enough work already.

Arnon

Who is hitting on who now?

Arnon

I know that most mothers want to smack their children against the wall from time to time. But I wasn't talking about those moments. What I had in mind was that there might be a possibility of me not being able to bond with my child. That I'd think at the first glimpse of it "So, you ugly, wrinkled, screaming thing crawled out of my body and claims everybody's attention from now on? Because of you I'm not the person your father loves the most, anymore. Because of you I'll be 'the one who brings our grandchild' to my parents and 'a mother' to everyone else."

Thanks for being so generous with your semen, but if I ever decide to get pregnant, there is a good chance that my boyfriend will assert his claims to fathership.

Juliane

You should tell your boyfriend that there is a beautiful verb in most languages, namely, to share.
I give you my semen; he changes the diapers. Everybody is happy. By the way, does your boyfriend know about our relationship?

Arnon

I'm afraid he isn't very fond of sharing when it comes to his girlfriend.

We have a relationship? Why didn't you tell me? I would've tried to care more.

Juliane

Your boyfriend should get rid of his insecurities.
Since we met in the beautiful city of Münster last fall I consider you my wife.

Did you read 'Everything is Illuminated', by Jonathan Safran Foer? It's partly about the nazi's killing Jews in Ukraine. If you read it, I'm very curieus what you thought of it, literary-wise, also in the light of your comment in a post a few weeks ago that you couldn't think of any writer of your generation you liked.

sorry, comment in wrong post.

I'v moved it to the right one, feel free to destroy this and the above two posts.

Arnon

Ah, I see. You must have been totally enchanted by me, back then.

I myself spent the night after we met kneeling on the linoleum of my room trying to vomit into a bowl as silently as possible due to gastritis. (no offence intended)

Juliane

What induced the gastritis?

Juliane

You looked a bit pale that night. Why didn’t you go home earlier? Have you ever met a man who wasn’t enchanted by you?
To be honest, it wasn’t your looks that made me drowsy, it was your smell, this beautiful mix of youth and death, of hope and decay, with the emphasis on decay, that made me fall in love with you.

Oscar/Arnon

@ Oscar
Too much coffee, too much stress.

@ Arnon
I always look pale. You can tell when I'm feeling extremely unwell, though, because my lips turn white.
I didn't leave earlier because there wasn't a moment that seemed proper.

I'm impressed. You were able to smell an awful lot through my perfume and my pullover without even leaning towards me.

Juliane

Perhaps it was your perfume that reminded me of death and youth.
Your eyes were inviting me to come much closer, but I'm a gentleman.
Dispassion is a source of happiness as you may know.
Besides that I didn't want to give the wrong impression to the owener of the bookstore who was paying for our food and drinks.
I said to myself: "During my next reading tour in Germany I will seduce Juliane, if she still smells like death, that is, and if the owner of the bookstore in Münster will allow me this small amount of pleasure."
I have to be practical.

You'd better be quick, then, Mr Grunberg. I'm writing my master thesis these days and will be leaving Münster afterwards. But I have to inform you, that I have no intention of making myself or my boyfriend miserable. Nevertheless, I'd be very curious about your tactics.

Get a room - or better... leave it

Hello everybody.
I'm a friend of Juliane ... and really am suffering because of her telling me day after day what Mr. Grunberg wrote in his blog.
Not that i'm not interested - i just don't wanna know to whom he wants to squander his sperm. Really- no. Thanks.
And by the way - following this pseudo flirt i am hectically searching for a basket to vomit in.
Please don't think i'm rude. No really. I'm just fed up with two over shy people, using the anonymity, or as i newly call it a(r)nonymity of the internet, to pretend to be something there are definitely not.
So please - Mr. Grunberg. Would you please stop to contact-annoy me by using Juliane? That would be fantastic.
Flowers, kisses, hugs - and all the other instruments to make this sound less disgusted.
N.

Juliane

Tactics?
And do you think that I will bypass Munich on a reading tour?
Who is this friend of yours who calls herself Die Mutti?

Mutti

Don’t be jealous. If you would like to carry my child you can make me an offer. By 2012 I would like to have twelve children with twelve different mothers. I consider it performance art, but you may call it love. I’m not sure what’s anonymous about this site or my comments. But I guess compared to reproduction many things feel anonymous. Send picture of you and your mother to my assistant Johannes (Johannes@arnongrunberg.com) and we will contact you and your mother at our earliest convenience.

Arnon

I meant the tactics by which you intend to seduce me.

Munich? I guess you mean Frankfurt (a man should know where his wife resides). But I can't guarantee that you'll meet me there, either. I don't know where I'll be by next year, but I always considered Frankfurt and Münster as stopovers.

"Die Mutti" is a very good friend of mine who's a bit shirty, as it seems. I have to admit that she gets to hear rather a lot of you.

Juliane

Shirty? You may so.
I bet she is in love with me.
Please tell her that I first have to ruin your life, as soon as I'm done with ruining your life I'll take care of your best friend.

Arnon

Do you mean "not leaving the house, listen to sad songs, stare at the walls, don't shower for weeks"-ruined or "can't decide between hanging myself and slitting my wrists in the bathtub"-ruined?

Juliane

Have you tried drinking your coffee with milk or a glass of water?

Oscar

Yes, but unfortunately I'm a rather delicate person when it comes to my stomach.

@ Mr. Lockenboris Grunberg

Wow, i am so impressed how far you ego seams to reach. But why am i suprised about that? Frustated people who draw on something they call intelligence or sucsess seem to feel quite secure when they try to bild up a second reality in which they are no losers, huh?
And don't try to argue with me sugar, i'm not one of those little shy girls adoring people who think that their average life would be interesting in any point because it is spread on a blog.

edit

By the way... this will be my last comment.
This here is not my purpose of life - as it seems to be to others.
I've got no time for this sh**. I've got to work, there are bills to pay.
You know...in the real life. Maybe you should look it up what that is and get one, too.

@ Jule
Wir sehen uns ja heute. Bitte verschone mich mit etwaigen Antworten vom Lockenboris. Soviel kann ich garnicht essen wie dann kotzen möchte. Aprospos Essen.. wollen wir heute zusammen was Essen gehen, heute Abend?

@ Bernard
I think you are right
@ Arnon
Don't consider this a hit on, but I do feel that I can trust you. Maybe it's that old woman inside you.

Mutti

Don't worry, you have a special place in my heart.