I don't think kindness is supposed to be loveable.

I love your rash, the imperfection of your skin.

I doubt if we really have a choice for returning love. It's clear when you know you're able to return love or not, but I don't think people can change that by just making a choice.

(In Onze Oom some characters return "love" because they see it as their duty (or something like that), but that makes me wonder if that is still love.)

I love you. That is already so much. Why want more. Not wanting or even expecting return of this kind of affection preserves you from being hurt. Or is this kindness?

For a lot of love I feel I don't want a thing in return.

"Can we really desire something that is ugly?"
Beauty is, till a certain point, relative. Do we consider something to be ugly if we desire it?
Even though there are certain fix characteristics of physical beauty, there are HAPjes (Highly Attractive Person) which differ from those. They can be found attractive because of there way of speaking, walking, looking,there politeness, there clothes, the way they show their interest, but do not necessairly possess physical beauty features.

Calisha

There is a difference between finding an object attractive and desiring an object.
Do you really believe that you yearn for person A because he or she is so polite and well-dressed?

Kindness

Arnon, do you think kindness is like make-up? Like an extra layer to cover the real underneath?

I always think real ugliness comes from inside too. But often it's just pain with make-up.

usually I am aware of the imperfections and certain uglyness of those I love, and I feel kind of joyfull that it atracts me so much.

Its funny. People think it makes them better, If they love something that is ugly.

Karol

That's very kind of you. When are we going to have dinner?

I believe that most of all, people desire desire.

Arnon

Are you that kind that you return my love for you?

Oscar

The object of love is just an excuse for desire? We feel the need for desire and we just look for something (or somebody) to desire?

Arnon

Indeed. There are things that we desire more than other things, but in the end desire is what we desire most of all.

Oscar

Yilding for the sake of yilding?

No, I don't. Being well-dressed and polite isn't enough, even though to me they help a lot in finding someone attractive because these qualities show that someone appreciates him/herself. Still some "ugly" men can meke themselves desirable by being witty, misterious, intelligent and playful (e.g twinkling eyes). Sometimes, these qualities prickle the fantasy in such a way they make you forget the looks. But maybe ugly women have a harder time making themselves "yearnable" by behaviour because men are mainly visually tuned.

I believe that Oscar -as often btw- is wright, we want passion and desire, preferably under the camouflage of beauty.

what is beautyful?
what is ugly?
it's always subjective!
everyone i love is beautiful to me,
no matter how he looks like...

You must love me beaut!

- The ideal beauty is a fugitive which is never found.
- There is not one female comic who was beautiful as a little girl.
Joan Rivers

And as for 'inner beauty', or 'the beauty inside': of course an ugly person may be very nice and kind and in possession of a perfect character. Which in the end may be much more valuable than the outward appearance. But it all depends; no one is perfect anyway, whether outside or inside ('A fugitive which is never found').

And after all is said and done we seem to be back to Richard Dawkins and our selfish genes. It's our genes that make us see and perceive things - you may be totally color-blind and never be able to see his/her lovely red hair! - so indeed beauty remains in the eye of the beholder. (Which goes for inner beauty as well).
Not everything is 'subjective' but yes, beauty most certainly is.
Compare men's appreciation of nature's beauty!
Until the 18th century nobody had 'an eye' for snowy mountain ranges, they were just scary to us (homo sapiens).
But we modern people usually love them. love images of them and so on. Go there skiing and walking.

And there is 'culture' (Dawkins' 'memes'): compare the beauty of Marilyn Monroe or Valentino with our present day models and celebs and icons of beauty!

Arnon

Shana tova! Let's have dinner next week. Do you like cod with raisins? Just name the day.

bert

u mean like my icon of beauty tamsin omond?!?! as yippie leader shes my kday tree surprise 4 the atx this year and you can help me worship her with kday herschell grynzpann ornaments

for only maybe herschell was ever as cutte as tamsin omond revolving in horse poo waltz tho herschell awful cute

let his likeness decorate yr kday festivities

oscar

Is it the same as saying: no desire = no love?

Veerle

That's what Oscar said, that we desire desire, or passion for that matter.

Bert

Marcela says: “Those whom I have inspired with love by letting them see me, I have by words undeceived.” I’m not sure if people will be inspired with love by seeing you, but I’m quite sure that “subjective” is an undeceiving word, if ever there was one.Especially if it is followed by the assertion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.