2009/09/19 Amsterdam
[ Previous ]   [ Next ]

Terror

Sorrow

‘As a psychologist, one of my favorite puzzles is the motivation to experience pain and unpleasantness, something the psychologist Paul Rozin has called “benign masochism.” The best examples here are the pleasures of the imagination. There are millions who pay to see movies that terrify them, including those with scenes of imaginative and horrific torture. Others prefer sadness to fear. They are drawn to the suicidal prince, the young mother dying of cancer, the school bus and the cliff. Hundreds of years ago, David Hume marveled at the “unaccountable pleasure” that spectators of a tragedy feel from sorrow, terror, and anxiety: “The more they are touched and affected, the more they are delighted with the spectacle,’ Paul Bloom writes in today’s Herald Tribune . The article is worth reading.

Mr. Bloom adds: “Even seemingly perverse pleasures have meaning; they have been shaped by natural selection to solve problems that we might not be consciously aware of. Simple pleasures aren’t that simple after all.”

The meaning of seemingly perverse pleasures must be equal to the meaning of life.


[ Add comment ]
24 comments Last_comment
meaning of life
'...seemingly perverse meaning...' = 'meaning of life' ??!!
1. What would be a 'perverse' meaning of anything?
2. We have meaning of words, yes...
3. But what the hell would be the meaning of life? Let alone a 'perverse meaning' of life?

Sorry, but I think this is just a load of crap.
said bert hesper 19/09/2009 02:10 • x
Correction
Of course: 'perverse meaning' - should be 'perverse pleasures'.
Still, how do perverse pleasures constitute 'the meaning of life'?
Do you happen to have the answer to the meaning of life?
Please tell.
said bert hesper 19/09/2009 02:15 • x
Hesper
It’s one of the characteristics of barbarians that they react aggressively against everything that they cannot immediately comprehend.
said Arnon Grunberg 19/09/2009 08:40 • x
Arnon
What do you think of the fact that the new Dutch passport now requires fingerprints? Would you give yours or has your passport not expired yet? It kind of reminds me of this: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persoonsbewijs
said Margot Morgan 19/09/2009 09:27 • x
Happy Homer Simpson
The psychologist also asks himself: “Is it better to be Happy Socrates or Happy Homer Simpson?”

I guess those two aren't that different after all if I agree with your conclusion.
Or can't I give meaning to my life by enjoying seemingly perverse pleasures?

(Doh!)
said Z! _ 19/09/2009 09:58 • x
If we are not able to experience through witnessing, anyway, Mr. Bloom's theory of "safe practice" can't be true, can it? (cf. discussion from 2009/09/10)
said Juliane B. 19/09/2009 10:53 • x
Arnon
What would be the meaning of my life if I didn't have these 'perverse pleasures' you are talking about?
said Sasja Mirskikh 19/09/2009 10:57 • x
Juliane
Once again: I said that there is a distinction between witnessing and experiencing. When it comes to let's say literature one could say that the author strives to give the reader a "experience" or something that is perceived as an "experience." But to a certain degree a reader will always be a tourist. See also my Albert Verwey reading.
http://www.arnongrunberg.com/announcement/178
said Arnon Grunberg 19/09/2009 11:59 • x
Sasja
Your longing for perverse pleasures should be meaning enough. For God’s sake girl, go and buy a sex toy.
said Arnon Grunberg 19/09/2009 12:01 • x
Arnon
I have a sex toy, but I didn't know it was perverse to have one! If having (and using) a sex toy is considered to be perverse, we are living in an utterly perversified society - I bought mine at Etos.

I am glad my life is meaningful, though! :D
said Sasja Mirskikh 19/09/2009 12:46 • x
On being aggressive...
"The meaning of seemingly perverse pleasures must be equal to the meaning of life."

If I call this a load of crap I am still not a barbarian.
I don't understand this?
This is not equal to "Waartoe zijn wij op aarde?" / "What is our purpose on this earth?" (kathechismus!) ??
- Answer: 'To get happy on this earth and in heaven.'

Sorry if I seem to be aggressive, but the phrase 'the meaning of life' doesn't mean anything.
That's all I wanted to say.
said bert hesper 19/09/2009 13:39 • x
Arnon
Yes, and on that basis I'd say that reading a sad book or watching a horror movie cannot convey any preparation for the Ernstfall, and what's more I don't think it lies in people's intention when receiving contents evoking intense emotions. Neither consciously nor unconsciously. Even though people might be seeking experiences and emotional heights they are not able to reach on their own. In most cases it's probably pure escapism. Wouldn't they confuse reality and fiction if they did draw on what they watched or read?

It might be different with documentaries and specialised books, although they can be read as fiction, too, and probably are if the content is far off the shores of the reader's own life. And even if it's very close, there might be intriguing anecdotes sticking out of the rest concerning the manner of reading.
said Juliane B. 19/09/2009 14:26 • x
Sasja
It all depends on how you use your sex toy, don't you think?
What are the seemingly perverse pleasures you long for?
said Arnon Grunberg 19/09/2009 15:28 • x
Hesper
Are you suggesting that the title of Monty Python’s movie “The Meaning of Life” is meaningless? What exactly are your arguments?
said Arnon Grunberg 19/09/2009 15:32 • x
Juliane
Your position is: a game cannot prepare us for the real thing.
I beg to differ.
If I misunderstood your position I apologize.
said Arnon Grunberg 19/09/2009 15:33 • x
Arnon
This is a vry good question. I have to think about it. When something pops up in my head I tend to think it's absolutely 'normal' (not perverse).
said Sasja Mirskikh 19/09/2009 16:28 • x
n my perversity something dusan makavejevianiish of the haldeman juliuses maybe employing the quasi realism of faux silent documentarianism (the voices unnaturally formal and disembodied in scratchy wax) but hows this for casting? vito schnabel as manny and stella as marcet!! they kiss for the camera in the vast warehouse of their dreaam of culture on the cheap uplifting the masses beneath the harsh kansas sky
can u feel it? oh the potential reams of vanity fairish frisson boggle
said bossa srrewanova 19/09/2009 17:51 • x
Arnon
My argument was that to equate 'the meaning of life' with (the meaning of) something else is always nonsensical.
Thanks for mentioning Monty Python's film, its title was aptly chosen. (!)
Compare the use of the word 'purpose' applied to life or the evolution of all the species on this planet (teleological reasoning).
More or less the same holds true for 'the meaning of life'.
The bottom line: life has no meaning. And to say that the meaning of perverse pleasures equals/constitutes/defines the meaning of life just seems to me to be double gibberish.
That's it.
said bert hesper 20/09/2009 02:03 • x
Hesper
Are you suggesting that your life is void of seemingly perverse pleasures?
said Arnon Grunberg 20/09/2009 02:35 • x
Arnon
Sorry, I don't even know what would be 'perverse' pleasures.
Let alone 'seemingly' perverse pleasures.
The words seem to refer to something but I still haven't a clue to what exactly they refer.
said bert hesper 20/09/2009 02:52 • x
the meaning
The meaning of life is to reproduce. Endure or exert 'perverse' pleasures like pain or humiliation makes you realize you're alive.
said h an 20/09/2009 12:30 • x
h an
The meaning of my life is not to reproduce. :)
Anyway, whatever, the phrase 'meaning of life' is a string of words signifying nothing.
Words have meanings, but the life of an elephant - whether in the wild or in a zoo - doesn't mean anything whatsoever.
said bert hesper 20/09/2009 18:33 • x
It is irrelevant to discuss specific individual lives, in discussing the meaning of life. As an individual, you don't matter. Neither does the elephant. You're alive because you're parents reproduced. The same holds for the elephant, and all the other creatures on earth that reproduced starting roughly 3.7 billion years ago, until now.

Reproduction of life is the only meaning of life.
said h an 20/09/2009 20:59 • x
h an
- 'you're parents' = your parents.
You won't admit that equating the phrase 'the meaning of life' to 'reproduction' or (the meaning of) whatever is gibberish.
Try reading Bertrand Russell's 'An Inquiry into Meaning and Truth' (1940, New York: W. W. Norton & Company.)
said bert hesper 20/09/2009 22:58 • x
[ Add comment ]