It is simple:

Politicians spread lies. Citizens decide which lies they want to believe in. They decide according to what image they want to convey. For example: conformity, nonconformity, being smart, caring, tough, outraged... whatever suits them.

Don't be fooled by people who say "what I voted is private". This is just another way of saying "I am not interested in you".

You either play the game, and believe in democracy, or you don't.

But there are too many people playing the game for the rules to be questioned.

Average citizen

Not to be taken for the 'man in the street' / Joe The Plumber etc. I hope. Although...
Let's assume there is an 'average citizen'. Must be about 50% of any group of people/any nation. This 'spitzbürger' will detest anything below or above him/her.
Anything he/she wants regarding society should be looked at with a suspicious mind, sure, I agree with Mencken on this point.

Myth

That's why referendum is such a bad idea.

Arnon

Do write what the voters want is to be a whore.

Suspicious minds

I am suspicious of the average citizen. But even more suspicious of the non-average citizen, especiallys ones that think they "know better". And I am completely suspicious of anyone seeking public office.

Neria

Are you suggesting that Arnon writes what his readers want ?

Carlos

Are you saying that we have reason to distrust the expert as much as the average citizen?

Caplan

Caplan's argument is mostly based on the inability of citizens to act in their self-interest when it comes to economic policies. (Of course, this assumes that economists understand the economy better than average citizens. That might not be a fashionable assumption, but I still think it holds true. ) His argument, however, is relevant in a much broader sense. Many governmental interventions only make sense when you look at the intervention as the most important outcome , not at the supposed effects of that intervention. These effects are often uncertain, complex and counter-intuitive.

Of course, the weakeness of Caplan's argument is that he assumes experts know better, as if they are not hopelessly divided among themselves. I have met quite a number of economists over the past year and each and everyone of them felt the crisis had exonorated his or her views. Suddenly, they all reinvented themselves as outsiders to mainstream economics. The only person who admitted to a professional identity crisis was a French hotel receptionist who studied financial mathematics.

Michel

He has some interesting things to say about biases. Whether we should always trust experts is a different discussion.

Democracy simply means the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people.

I hate this scepticism about democracy. I admit , it isn't the perfect solution, but still, what is the alternative. Do you want to replace it with a strong leader and an army without parlement. I am the one with the extremist background, remember.

@Mieke & democracy

[It's 'parliament' by the way, you used the Dutch spelling]

You've got an extremist background?
Please tell, I don't remember ('cause I don't know you).
Or did you mean to say you grew up in an extremist environment/country?

You are quite right, there is certainly no alternative to a democracy (except some very 'enlightened' dictatorship- Frederick II in Germany, which seems to be the only example; and must probably be the one and only exception to the rule...)

On the other hand: democracy may be a nice thing, but in the end people may not be nice enough for it . (-1933)

So we are indeed left with the conclusion that mankind is the ultimate disaster for all and everything on this planet.

Mieke

You hate skepticism about democracy?

Believers hate skepticism about God.

Mr. Caplan calls democracy not without reason a secular religion.

scepticism

Every human being should be a sceptic about anything.
Please Mieke don't hate scepticism or sceptics, it happens to be the only way to be a decent human being.
Arnon Grunberg is quite right here.

A nationalistic, rightwinger wich is openly sceptical about democracy is considered a dangerous extremist .
No one inside Vlaams Belang even dares to question democracy. At the contrary, every Flemish nationalist strives for Flemish independence through the democratic channels.

Mieke

Who is going to decide who is an extremist? The word “extremist” does not mean much; it signifies that certain people are appalled by the opinions of other people.

I will skip the adjective "dangerous" for now.

Telling that democracy can only be criticized from within democracy. First accept the rules, then stop doubting.
Isn’t this one of the characteristics of religion?

arnon

welche staatsform empfehlen sie?

Mieke

Yes, but Arnon said it first.

Beata

You don’t need to have a medicine before you are allowed to diagnose a disease.
To be critical of real existing democracy does not necessarily mean that we should get rid of democracy altogether.

Neria

What I said first is this: I asked you several times to refrain from commenting on this site.
Time has come to overcome your addiction.

Arnon

Should we vote about Neria continuing to comment? What would we do with the result? What would it say? Would we be the experts helping her to overcome her addiction? Would we be the puppets following our big leader (yes, in this case this would be you)? Or would we be the bored and anonomous mass who see an opportunity to exercise power for once?

Neria

Having sex for money is being a whore. Meeting popular demand is business or talent. Having sex as a response to popular demand is being a pop star.

Mao

The question is what is at stake for the average commenter in this election.
And keep in mind that the election itself will fulfill the need of attention of an abhorrent stalker I try to get rid of.
Should a newspaper organize an ongoing election about the question which letters to the editor will be published?
And why not ask the doctor to hold an election about the question what medicine he should prescribe?

The question is whether the average commenter is aware of what is at stake for the average commenter in this election.

Checks and balances are an necessary element of democracy. Can we check the editorial board?

Moreover, can we perform its key task itself? Editorial boards are merely a response to scarcity of space in the newspaper. Seems like a pretty outworn consideration, given our channel for communications. There are other ways to filter out rubbish.

To me, the outcomes of democratic processes merely have a signaling function. It tells me how my environment is changing and how I should adapt in order to survive.

Arnon

Its not that simple. Most politicians, pundits, bloggers, columnists etc. are self-appointed experts. This is different from being a real expert. And even "real experts" often espouse a particular point of view or even a dogma. I don't think it is wise to trust a self-appointed expert. And to be a successful politican requires a Machiavellian attitude, a huge ego and a willingness to make unfulfillable promises and tell lies.

My experiences at the Dutch Socialist Party left me paradoxically with greater faith in democracy and very little faith in politicians. The moment we trust our politicans we are lost.

Bert

About the rise of the Nazi party: The NSDAP never got more than 37% of the vote in a free election. In the last election before Hitler became chancellor and seized power, the NSDAP only got 33%. The great failure of the democratic parties was their failure to overcome their differences and resist the threat to democracry. (The unwillingness of the Communist Party to cooperate with the Social Democrats was apparently a key factor.)

The ability of a large but minority party to gain undue leverage in multi-party proportional representation system is something worth remembering. In this regard I find the reaction of Dutch parties to Wilders' PVV party quite worrying.

Carlos

My trust in experts is fairly limited. And I do think that laymen may have important things to say (I am myself a layman) but I'm not sure if it is wise to hold elections about all important or less important issues.

Mao

What is at stake in this election?

Arnon

Your power.

Mieke - Unless Arnon has changed his mind over the years these are his words:

"...many artists keep producing art because they need the money, or the attention, or both. They are not fighting against demons, they are just showing up at work on a daily basis".

I do believe you are familiar with Arnon's discourse on the subject. Arnon avoids answering my questions perhaps because it is possible that maybe three readers will stop purchasing his novels if they will be aware of the fact that Arnon feels like a whore. I don't know why he feels like this, if it is because he produces readable texts or because at times when he is very genuine the thought of sharing his inner world with anonymous and sometimes hostile readers is unbearable for him. I don't know and we might all die without knowing what Arnon really feels.

Neria

So what? Does anyone owe his "inner world" to someone else?

Poessie Mao

If I am an average commentator then I am perfectly aware of what is at stake in this election. Had I been an addict I would refrain from commenting on this site from fear of shooting my own leg.

Rgarding the whore definitions I am not quite sure if you are aware of the fact that this subject was poked here in the past. Try this artice, I will refrain from dismissing it as a complete rubbish: http://www.nrcboeken.nl/recensie/de-kus-van-de-geslachte-varkens

dries van cann

No. I will appreciate it if you'll copy and paste the phrase which made you conclude that anyone owes her "inner world" to someone else. Would you mind first reading the same article which I was refering to in my reply to Poessie Mao?

Neria

You might feel like a whore and still produce brilliant literature. Having sex with an immaculate virgin, doesn't necessarily means the experience will be good and satisfying.

Mieke

May I ask what is your definition of a whore?

Neria

If you like to write a polemic against Multatuli you should first start reading his work, Saskia Pieterse’s dissertation might be enlightening as well.

Anyhow, this is not the place to argue with Multatuli.

Once again I ask you kindly to refrain from commenting on this site.

Mao

Please, explain yourself.

Arnon

It is easy to get rid of subversive elements (in our case: abhorrent substance) in society (in our case: this blog). With regards to abhorrent substance, technically, you could easily opt for coercion, instead of suggestions.

However, John Locke is more relevant to blogs and the like than Adam Smith. What would we think of you? It is the people, not the crown or palace that makes being a king attractive.

Allowing for elections mean to create the perception of self-administration by the citizens of this blog. More specifically, it would mean to create the perception of you giving up authority and share power with us. But only the perception. It becomes a matter of marketing skills and coming up with good spins, or simply appearing to be a trustworthy person. But what if abhorrent substance has more skills or better advisers?

Organizing elections necessarily means creating a Catch 22. Don’t give them what they want. But keep it secret, though.

Pussy Moan

"Don’t give them what they want. But keep it secret, though. "
Please explain, how is that a "Catch 22" situation?

Are you a conspiracy theorist?

Carlos

You are right. The sentence you cite must be complemented by: “Or make them want what you give them.” The use of the phrase Catch 22 refers to the situation once elections are introduced.

No, I am not. You? But keep in mind that being paranoid does not mean you are not being followed.

Mao's Pussy

I still don't see how that is a "Catch 22" situation. Have you read the book? A "Catch 22" is basically a bureaucratic no-win situation. A pilot in the novel could apply to be discharged on the grounds of insanity. Except that by requesting a discharge he would actually be proving his sanity.

How can one make someone like what one gives them? What is the thing given? Who is doing the giving and who is keeping the secret?

Carlos

That is a pity. At least I tried.

As far as the "thing" concerns: anything goes. Take a look around you.

Poessie Mao

I was offering Arnon and Sander my IP addresses, technically they have no problem blocking me if that was their real intention (I guess Sander tends more freely and eagerly towards this solution). I have no idea why Arnon is not blocking me, the chances others will know about it are null. The question should be whether Arnon derives any kind of satisfaction from repeating himself like a scratched record and I tend to believe he does since I am not the first abhorrent substance here. I try to avoid uttering prophetic sentences but studying this stagnation for almost two and a half years makes me think I will not be the last one either. Since I'm immuned to Arnon's insults it is better he will pour his rage on me than on innocent victims but I can't devote myself to this task.
I'm sympathetic to Arnon's cause and would not develop a polemic against Multatuli here. I think that tentative readers might read more on Arnon himself from his writing on Saskia Pieterse’s dissertation though.

Poessie Mao

It is amazing Neria won't stop commenting here even when being asked nicely. I guess she gets off on me spending the time needed to blocked her technically. What a waste of time and commenting space.

Perhaps it is intriguing for some people that she has such a boring and empty life that she nothing better to do than annoy people who obviously dislike her.

I hope she finds someone quickly that will treat her for her borderline behaviour.

Sander

I don't know how you got to see my pics in Facebook but to deduce a psychiatric diagnose from a name of Rosé sealed in a Champagne bottle is ridiculous perhaps as much as jumping to conclusions regarding Arnon's psyche from reading his texts only. I agree to be ridiculed for that but at least my assumptions are far more elaborated. I will take you far less time to block the current IP address than wasting your time playing a shrink :) Do you need my assistance? I will be more than happy to help you :)

Mao

Wouldn’t you say that there already is a kind of self-administration on this site?

Whether this self-administration is to my liking or not is a different question.

As to John Locke, we already have an excellent name-dropper on this site. His name is Bert Hesper and you will never be able to outshine him.

Neria

I don't know what your problem is, but it sounds very petty.

Arnon.

This only exists because you allow for it. I have no power.

Is it to your liking? An

Arnon

And if it is: why? And if it is not: why still tolerate it?

To all, new functionality

This afternoon Oscar Wilde contacted us with an excellent suggestion to end all this 'I don't like you, go away' non-sense. Instead of being the fascist rulers of this blog or relying too much on democracy, it allows us to give freedom to all.

At the end of each line below the comment you'll see a small 'x'. Clicking this one lets you hide all comments of that particular commenter. So if you are fed up with, for example Neria, block her and she's gone.

Technical note: the people you block are stored in a cookie on your computer. If you use another browser or another computer, you need to block these users again. But admit it, that's fun!

If you want to unblock someone, click the 'Show all' link that will appear below all comments if there are hidden comments. At the now visible comment, click the 'o' at the end of the line of the commenter you want to unblock.

Sander, It doesn't work

I still see you.

Awesome! I think it works!

!

Small update

Not all browsers handle the expiration of a cookie the same way. I now set the expiration of the cookie to 10 years from now. Thanks for reporting errors to me.

Sander

Thanks!

Arnon

I don't understand why do you have to lie. Sander must know that I can't use the new function if I have to repeat it each time. I can understand why you would like to play nasty with me but you are fooling the rest of the commentators if they now think that I can block others they way others can block me. If the effect of blocking my IP address and adding the new function is the same then in applying the second option you're ridicule innocent commentators.

'you' I meant.

Abhorrent substance

Innocent? Who is being the psychotherapist now?

Sander & Arnon

Please keep in mind that the feeling of being ignored is the perfect breeding ground for high school shootist to come into existence.

And, naive me, I am a bit puzzled by the different layers seen in our conversation.

Three monkeys

Doesn't it strike anyone else how childish this "solution" is?

You may as well put the three monkeys "see no evil", "hear no evil" and "speak no evil" at the top of the pages.

@Poessie

Also known as "the Shame Response to Rejection." http://www.shameresponse.org/index.html

Mao

If we follow your line of reasoning editors will not be allowed anymore to turn down manuscripts.

Carlos

"Childish"? You like to put labels on things don't you?
If we assume that the comments on this site are letters to the editor then readers are now able to edit these letters. To a certain degree of course, they cannot shorten the letter, but at least they can decide to not read certain letters.
If we follow your line of reasoning not reading the complete newspaper could be labeled "childish".
But perhaps that is what you were trying to say.

Mao

PS Could you explain what you are trying to say with "different layers?"

(Yes a conversation can be like a cake.)

@Poessie

But maybe it's not as passive as rejection. Maybe it's more active, in which case we enter the realm of "online bullying"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569949/Girl-13-commits-suicide-after-online-bullying.html
Arnon - do you consider your website some form of a publishing house? I think some see it more like a village square?

Arnon

I am quite capable of simply not reading comments I don't like. And ones I do read and don't like, I can just ignore.

A paper or magazine does not publish all the letters to the editor it receives. This does not mean that critical ones should be suppressed. The aim should be to stimulate discussion.

Obviously you have some quarrel with Neria that lay readers of this blog do not understand. I suggest you sort it out with Neria rather than leaving your readers to sort it out.

Carlos

I trust your capabilities. I’m pretty sure that you able to ignore comments you dislike, but I’m grateful for reminding me of your ability to choose.

An editor at a newspaper chooses from various letters a few (or none) exactly in order to stimulate discussion. (It’s possible that sometimes “critical” letters are not being published of course.)

If you go to the Web you can see what may happen when all “letters” are published as they are.

Since no editor is involved in editing the comments on this site as of yesterday readers have the possibility to block certain comments.

I don’t see how you can object to this function.

For somebody with your skills you are quite insensitive to other people’s sensitivities.

Some people go to church and really dislike seeing porn in their church.

FYI I don’t pick a quarrel with any of the commenters, but I do believe that there are enough places on the Web where people can vent their rage.

Carlos

Personally I find the new solution quite elegant.

The whole situation resembles society. Most people can handle personal freedom very well. There are a few rotten apples that do not respond to reason and force the rest of society to formalize laws and punishments. So these asocials limit the personal freedom of all. Behaviour like Neria's can thus be defined as the root of a lot of evil.

What is so attractive in the new functionality to me is that instead of creating new rules and using force it allows all users of this site to create their personal ideal environment. It actually increases freedom and therefore defies the evil of inconsiderate people.

It almost seems now like you can't or don't want to handle that freedom.

Neria

A whore: 1) a prostitute
2) a person considered sexually promiscuous
3) a person considered having compromised principles for personal gain.

Definition wich clearly hold a moral judgement. Isn't it time that we start questioning the morality that lies underneath this all.
A person is no less moral because he accept money in exchange for sexual intercourse.

@Sander, I'd be interested to know if anyone actually does block Neria. My guess is no. Truth be said: this blog has even been lacking in argument (whether they were picked by commentators or Arnon's, to me sthat eems entirely subjective) for quite some time. Everyone - including me (I'll leave my personal motives for doing so out of this for now) - seems to have rolled over and is playing puppy. So watching Neria self-implode is all part of the fun and helps us (rather: the virtual identities we hide behind) feel better about ourselves.

Arnon

I refute that. Editors can do what they want. However, writers are not completely depnding on them anymore to get their works being read (and make some money from it).

Arnon

PS If I were a name dropper, i would mention Gadamer or Eco, but I won't.

I was referring to the possibility that my input here concerning elections and certain substance was interpreted as a request for creating the possibility to be protected from contributions of that certain substance. From my perspective, this is not a true interpretation.

Conversations are a piece of cake?

Aliefka

I don't feel better if someone is asked to leave this blog. It only makes me wonder when Arnon will suggest it to me. Anyhow I don't intend to stop talking to certain people just because Arnon doesn't want them to comment any longer.

Aliefka

A spider run by Google last night screwed up the logs, but yeah, I see some users are blocked by others, including Neria.

Mao

What do you refute exactly?

Mao II

The interpretations of your own comments on this site are your responsibility.
They are not my interpretations of your comments.

If you want to compete with Mr. Hesper to become my favorite name-dropper I wish you well.

Mao III

Not only cakes but also conversations have different layers. Apparenty you never thought of this before.

Mieke

Some people are in desperate need of my attention. They mistake their need for entitlement. That can be tiresome.

Sander

I still could use a button wich makes it possible for me to correct my grammatical, linguistic mistakes.

Mieke

I understand the need. In some cases I am guilty of editing my own comments directly in the database. But it is less simple, because the site has somehow to make sure it is you and not someone else who is editing your comment. I'll think about it, it is a challenge.

Sander and Arnon

Maybe im under the button, but i think your philotechnical solution is hilarious seeing the effects on "full" screen, thank you, this is a classic communication treasure to me. And believe me, im not afraid to be buttonized, although my compliment is a big one and you two deserve it. Please dont react to this compliment i know that that is hard to do for being too big or too little or not something of a compliment at all (and for me very confusing, what am i doing? a lot of people will put me under the button now)

Careca

I will never put you "under the button". But feel free to quip: "Dear readers of this site, I deserve more than apathy. Put me under the button. Get rid of me now."

Mieke

I think that in most cases the only "less moral" person is the person who pays to objectify another.

Poessie Mao - Interpellation

That you answer to those who don't address you by your nick is your problem. If you would like me to react to your comments you'll have to use my name.

Sander, I blocked myself and it's quite a relief. Thnx. (will I see this comment, I wonder)

The answer is no. Profound!

Neria

I can't afford it for the moment, but when I am an octogenerian - forty years from now- I intend to engage a 25 year old gigolo for a night of tender sex. My ultimate revenge and yes I'm willing to pay for it.

Mieke

Would you like to take revenge on someone who is to be born only 15 years from now?
I hope that in your eighties you would not like to turn a person into an object.

Sander

Can commenting on this blog by Iphone be realized?

Jeanette

Commenting on the iPhone is not an option right now because the flash comment box used on this site is an excellent spam preventer. It makes it impossible (or at least very hard) for hackers to automatically post comment spam.

Unless we think of a new system to prevent spam, I am not willing to let go of the flash because it saves us tons of time cleaning posts.
So for now let's hope Apple and Adobe come up with Flash for the iPhone.

Sander

I don't know if this is a technical problem or whether you did it in purpose but I need to repaeat blocking comments. The blue 'X' is changed to a grey. Do you want a PrtScn evidence?

Sander

Also, after I have blocked you SEVERAL times I needed to unblock you now for further instructions. As a result the 'X' has changed into a blue 'O'. How many times should the blocking act be repeated?

Neria

It's not my intention to turn him into an object. I'll treat him with the
utmost respect and consideration.

Sander,
thanks for your clear answer.

Mieke

I think that technically I have nothing against selling one's sex if the person who is selling it is capable of earning money from potentially less harmful jobs and does not feel objectified during the act. Unfortunately the bibliography I read does not support this fantastic state; statistically most children and less young people who are either sold as or sell their sex don't do it because they choose to do it. Would you like to be directed to these bibliofraphical references?
I do think that BDSMers who sell sex are acting immorally because they objectify their clients.