An acquaintance of my family who is a geology professor has a colleague who says that "Women only go to university to find a husband." No surprise that female students have bad grades on his oral exams. When it comes to personal experencies I believe that women never stop searching for a husband, even when they are married.

Victor

We are raised to find a husband, that's what society wants us to do: to procreate. So , yes, we go to the university in the hope of finding a companion. But often we find so much enjoyment in the scientific approach, we realise we don't need the man after all.

Mieke

Isn't it the other way around?
When girls don't find the right man, they desperately search for
'enjoyment in the scientific approach'.

Modern world

Nowadays girls go to the university, find a husband and after that enjoy both marriage and sceintific (or business) carriere.

Vera

Not in my case. In his heart my father believed that a woman's destiny was to marry and raise a family. He wanted me to study, but only to the extend that it would enhance my chances on a better husband, with more social status. Unfortunately , my true dream, an artistic career was never taking seriously. I never found much happiness in a relationship, just because I always was wondering what I was doing in it, It took me years to realise that a husband wasn't the primarily goal in my life.

Mieke

I find that quite an open post Mieke, it shows real insight from your side but for some reason it doesn't quite surprise me. May I ask how old you are?

Staying in character, of course I would be the designated person to respond to this. Are you all insane? It's the middle-aged married bourgeois male (with child) who needs the sexy young skintight student, not the other way around.

Con man

Aren't all lovers con men (or con women)?

bert

spoken like a true Grunbergian..

Never mind, some copy-editing

To whom it may concern...
... go to the university - go to university
... sceintific - scientific
... carriere - careers
... to the extend - extent
... enhance my chances on - OF FINDING a better husband
... taking - taken seriously
... primarily goal - primary goal
==================================

Victor D.

I used to have a teacher of German in high school who told us that women who went to university to study French were just seeking a suitable husband.
[So I ended up studying English instead....]
===============================

M. Hordijk

Thanks!
Shall we start a love affair?

bert

I don't think so. What in my comment made you think I would be interested in such a thing? Did you think I was coming on to you? I'm here to read Grunberg, not to engage myself with men who seem to have problems expressing themselves coherently.

Hordijk

I am guessing you are not a humorous, fun loving, jovial kind of guy?

M. Hordijk

" ... expressing [myself] coherently"?
Sorry, I was just joking.
I'm here to read AG and his admirers as well.

@ M I

Sorry, I think she's a woman!
And a very serious one at that!

G.T.

Mid forties. Why doesn't it surprise you? Are you a woman.

Bert Hesper

Thanks for editing my text.

Mieke Dutoit

You're welcome.
Would you start a love affair with me?

The loving con

Bert: "Aren't all lovers con men (or con women)? "

But who are they conning? Their lover or themselves?

Is it not our illusion of the other we fall in love with? Do we not feel defrauded when we realize the other isn't as we imagined? (Of course we deny this and tell ourselves the other has "changed".)

At my place of work there is this one costumer who is twice my age and he has a wife and a child. I long for this man, he makes me cream my pants when he walks in. I would love to start an affair with him. And maybe afterwards i'll try to pick up on learning something again.

C. van der Meer

That's the spirit!
Just go for it, dear...
See how long it will last.
And always ask yourself: 'Why not?'
'Why not?' should be a guiding principle for all of us.
====================================

@Carlos

'Who are they conning?'
The other one, of course!

Bert Hesper

You sound like someone who hasn't yet discovered that he is also capable of deceiving himself.

Carlos, Hesper

Ah, two atheists in the world of love.

Arnon

Of course, love is a kind of religion. Hate is a kind of religion too.

But don't worry: Jesus loves you!

Bert Hesper

What have you to offer me aside editing my comments?

Mieke Dutoit

What can I offer you?
Anything, as long as it is for free, being a poor church mouse...
So, just me, really... and this space I occupy on this planet.

@ T. & Arnon

T.
Of course I deceive myself: it happens to be my favorite pastime.

Arnon
'Atheists in the world of love' ??
Where's this world of love of yours then?
People have their needs (your words), and that's it.
If love is an illusion, you can't be an atheist in the world of love!

Bert

One can be a disillusionist in the world of illusions.

Bert Hesper

I have a weak spot for poor church mouses. If you know how to live in such an arid place, you are a real survivor.

Bert

A good therapist will tell you that you should overcome your belief that you are unable to love.
You claim to be 50-something, but you often sound like a disgruntled teenager.

Bert PS

And go back to the principles of logic. If God is an illusion one cannot be an atheist in church?

Carlos

I recommend calling life itself an illusion.

Therapist ??!!

Dear Arnon Grunberg!

I'm certainly not incapable of loving someone.
I've loved many a woman and have had many relations these past years.
Do I really sound like a 'disgruntled teenager'?
What words led you to believe that?

@ ARNON

'You claim to be 50-something, but you often sound like a disgruntled teenager.'

I'm not CLAIMING to be 50-something, I just happen to be 59 !!
Ah, got you, with all your prejudices about people of a certain age!
I should 'act and behave' my age, shouldn't I?
"Narrow-minded little prick that you are..."
Which is what a teenager would say of course.
=====================================

M I

Actually, that's exactly what I am. I'm a joy to be around, I often picture myself as a ray of sunlight on a cloudy day.

Arnon

Life is not illusion. A brick falling on your toe will remind you of this.

Nevertheless, a good illusion can be a very happy thing. It is no accident that we speak of the "happy dreamer" but not of the "happy cynic".

Bert

Thank you! & yes indeed, why not?

Carlos

So life is not an illusion because it can hurt and it might end? (The brick can fall on your head and kill you.)
Why not apply the same principle to love?
Love is not an illusion because it can hurt and it might end.

The cynic loves his cynicism more than the dreamer loves his dream. A dreamer can have more dreams, for the cynic there is only one cynicism. His cynicism is his lifebuoy.

Arnon

If the brick falls on your head and kills you, you won't be doing much more reflecting.

I did not say love is an illusion. My point was that the object of our love becomes a (somewhate masturbatory) icon for us. In English there is the saying "love makes blind". In other words, we are blinded to reality.

Anyone who has fallen madly in love (notice the words of this common saying) knows that the feelings are very strong and even painful.

I am not sure the cynic loves his/her cynicism. One could equally suggest that the depressive loves his/her depression. The truth is that the depressive is not depressed by choice.

Carlos

The brick falls, you are wounded, they rush you to the hospital, and there you die. Time enough to think about illusions, love and life.

It’s also possible to argue that love opens your eyes. You seem to be pretty sure what reality is, where to look for it and how to be blind for it.

I agree, the depressed are not responsible for their depression; we don’t choose our illness. But cynicism is not an illness, if anything it’s a weapon.

Some soldiers love their weapon, they give their weapon a name, they clean it carefully, and they take it with them wherever they go. They treat their weapon better than their girlfriend.

What about a mother who loves her child? Masturbatory icon as well?

@Mieke Dutoit / illusions

- 'aside editing' - besides editing
- 'mouses' - mice [mouse - mice / louse - lice / house - houses]

"... the depressed are not responsible for their depression, we don't choose our illness..."
In the same way we don't choose our loves, we don't choose our illusions... We just have/get them.
Life is but an illusion, life is but a dream.
So love is an illusion within an illusion, a nice dream within a dream.
[...full of sound and fury, etc...]

Bert

We fall in love. Sometimes at first sight. But the start of a relationship, was , in my case, always a deliberate, almost rational choice . So we choose our illusions.

I agree with Mieke. Even though I, too, can only revert to my own experiences. At first it's a little game. I touch on a feeling, then draw a bit nearer believing I could always retreat if I wanted to. After a while I get used to its presence and force of attraction until, slowly but surely, I get sucked into a full-grown illusion which ends in the conviction of its truth.

Arnon

How likely is this scenario: the brick falls on your head. You lie in hospital dying and think: "Thank God life is just an illusion!"

I do not think the cynic's cynicism is a weapon. I think it is his or her refuge: a means to withdraw and a shield to hide behind.

The soldier who cares more for his weapon than his girlfriend has given up on life. All he has left is his weapon. In fact his weapon has become the centre of his world. Despite his display of machismo he is a sad, lonely and insecure person.

I agree that a mother's love for her child is different from a lover's infatuation. Why don't we have different words for different types of love? However, the mother's love for her son may also be iconic, possessive and oppressive.

I suppose any experience can "open your eyes". In my personal experience love has mainly opened my eyes to my own foolishness. But perhaps you mean "makes one feel alive". Love certainly makes one feel that life is worth living. Of course rejection makes one feel the opposite.

Carlos

Exactly, you are lying in the hospital, thinking: "It's NOT an illusion."

I'm not sure if the soldier is sadder, lonelier and more insecure than let's say the surgeon.

A shield is a weapon too.

And if you can't stand rejection stay with your mama forever, or even better, with a dog or a kitten.

I'm not speaking about you. I know you can handle rejection. Don't ask me why. Call it female intuition.

"Why don't we have different words for different types of love?"

I agree, it's very troubling in a discussion when people mix up the various phenomenons that are signified with the word "love".
I believe it is more fruitful to like the Greeks speak of eros, agape, philia, storge...