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Conflict

An interesting article by Nicholas Bakalar in today’s Herald Tribune: ’When a 12-year-old’s mother asks him “How many times do I have to tell you to stop?” he will understand that the answer, if any is required, had better not include a number.
But that insight requires a sophisticated understanding of ironic language that develops long after fluent speech. At what age do children begin to sense the meaning of such a question, and to what degree can they respond appropriately to other kinds of irony? In laboratory research on the subject, children demonstrate almost no comprehension of ironic speech before they are 6 years old, and little before they are 10 or 11. When asked, younger children generally interpret rhetorical questions as literal, deliberate exaggeration as a mistake and sarcasm as a lie.
But there has been little research on the subject outside the laboratory. So a group of Canadian researchers set out to record parents and children at home as they used four types of ironic language: sarcasm, hyperbole, understatement and rhetorical questions. It turns out that very young children can understand and even use ironic speech, even if they cannot describe what they have done to a researcher.’

According to Dr. Recchia, an assistant professor of education at Concordia University in Montreal, “irony can help to defuse situations that might otherwise cause conflict.”

Please keep in mind: irony is good for you and your enemies.


27 comments Last_comment
Irony
I love you for your faults. Couldn't you love me back for mine?
Interesting, but i have doubts.

What can be is that it looks like they understand it, while actually they just copy the behaviour that is working the best in the situation, from the parents or from brothers and sisters.

The ''understanding'' is the tricky part and i wouldn't bet on the fact that teh investigation has catched this and measured this appropriately. I read a lot of scientific papers for studying child-psychology and some are really too limited in such subjects leading to wrong conclusions (mostly by journalists who quote from it by the way, in stead of understanding (!;)) the total paper.
It would be a lot more convenient if children knew what 'jokes to count within social groups' were.
Children & language
I am sure that from the age of 6 or 7 children can certainly distinguish between ironic and serious language.
Although it also depends on the child's intelligence, which of course is true for grown-ups as well.
The entire oeuvre of someone like Steven Pinker (a psycholinguist who focused on language acquisition in children) may be of interest for those of you who want to learn more.
Personal experience with my many nephews and nieces over the years also taught me that children below 10 may be very capable of understanding irony or sarcasm.

@Milan van Opmeer
'catched' ?
It goes to show (again) that even grown-ups may have little 'feeling' or a 'deaf ear' for language. Or for irony or sarcasm.
It remains a fact that many people (most I guess) just cannot read between the lines, when even children aged 10 may be able to do so.
L David
Irony is a skill that introduces you into a certain stratum, that is true. Getting a joke, getting an ironic fashion statement, means you are part of an ingroup and share a power relation (with others of that ingroup) to those not in it. Being able to be ironic means for this “in group” not being bound to certain behavioural or cognitive or moral dictates, but instead being able to choose also for alternatives to them, or at least to be able to recognize that these dictates are not absolute. Having power means having a wider range of alternative choices.
Bert
Pinker is the one you come up with, that figures.

What interests me is how they measured irony in the scientific investigation. I would like to look into it (by reading the papers and a few others that are linked too it) but i lack the time for now.
@AG
did you try it on your godson?
p.s. some good vibes here:
Haus am See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMqIuAJ92tM
Irony
As I remembered as a little child, I think, the tone of the voice and the expression on the face is very important to understand what an adult really means.
The phrase “How many times do I have to tell you to stop?” can be spoken in a harsh voice, with a mild smile on your face (= certainly ironic), or with a desperate look in your eyes.
(Same for a phrase like “You are really a nice schoolboy, come here” and , for example, you receive a smash in your face.)
irony
@ Milan v Opmeer
Well, if ever you do have some time start with googling "irony+language+children"
Studying Steven Pinker will tell you that we seem to be 'hard-wired' for irony and sarcasm, like we are hardwired for language itself.
No surprise then that even very young children are able to recognize these expressions of an ironical or sarcastic nature.
Like they are able to construct all kinds of sentences that are grammatically correct in the language they hear spoken when growing up.
(Noam Chomsky comes to mind here as well: language is an innate (hardware) characteristic of the human species).
And back again to all these discussions on nature & nurture !
By the way, you constantly write 'too' where it should be 'to'.
.... 'What can be is that' (...) Good grief!
Regards,
bert
@ Bernard
You are quite right!
Very young children are quite capable of reading faces as well!
And like cats and dogs do, they recognize your tone of voice.
Bert
Guess i was lucky then at birth.

ps: ever heared of projection (talking about googling all the time bert;))
Guess I wasn't that lucky at birth. Some hypotheses claim that schizophrenia is due to braindamage during pregnancy. I experienced the considerable loss of linguistic and cognitive abilities during psychoses, some theories even claim that additional damage is done during these psychoses. Recovery becomes harder each time.A grim future lies ahead.
@Mieke
At least you are very aware of what is happening to you. I hope you know how to avoid as much as possible those psychotic moments.
(By the way, you do not sound very weird to me, but I guess it is the feeling inside you that causes the most harm)
Bernard
Thanks.
@Mieke
My sister has something simular in the sence that it might have been caused by not enought oxigen at birth (but different from you). It only occured after five years old and further much more....well, it prooves that some brainparts can be damaged in advance, modules that will only develop at later stages so the behavious can only be seen later while the damage is there from birth or before. To say this is also true for irony seems almost irony too me though.
Bernard/Milan
My biggest fear - I still owned my restaurant at that time- , when I started to loose touch with reality,used to be how I would become homeless, a vagabond. Apparantly that's the case with many schizophrenic people.
Mieke
Misschien mag ik je dit boek aanbevelen?
http://www.bol.com/nl/p/nederlandse-boeken/de-valstrik-van-het-geluk/1001004006521370/index.html?Referrer=ADVNLGOO0020086229bn7

Is niet perfect maar wel goed. de achtergrond is ACT therapie wat toch wel gestoeld is op, of in ieder geval gebruik maakt van mindfulness. En dat terwijl het technisch ook neo-skinneriaans is. Een bijzondere combinatie. Dit boek is de huis-tuin-en-keuken uitleg + voor zelfhulp.

ps: vergeet de titel, die vind ik niet zo sterk.
@Mieke
Yes I understand the danger, especially nowadays when they economize or privatize the public services. I think one needs at least (if no family available or when it is too hard to maintain long lasting friendships): a reliable doctor, a reliable social assistant or an institution, and maybe a reliable lawyer, not to mention money. Look forward as much as possible.
Good luck.
Bernard
Well, I already have a reliable writer and some admirable, virtual friends (you). As long as Arnon keeps writing, I have something to focus on. (to train my treacherous mind).
Bernard
I can count myself lucky, I trust my shrink completely, my family supports me and then there is still my artwork wich also helps me to concentrate and focus. For the rest, live my life as regular and tranquil as possible: healthy food, no drugs (cigarettes included), little alcohol , classical music and lots of sleep.
@Mieke
Some good old time drugs: Mean Town Blues, by Johnny Winter !
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6835001091108358051#
hop, hop, hop!
Bernard
Do you remember the evening in Ghent last year when Arnon had a reading over there and Jan Fabre was in the audience.If I'm not mistaken you were there too. I was there too, in Ghent I mean. I had taken the train in the afternoon from Kortrijk, to attend the lecture in the evening. That was the plan, it turned out to be one of my bad days. I had one of my strong delusional psychosis. I roamed the streets of Ghent for hours not being able to read the map, not able to locate the adress. When I realised that I wasn't going to make it, it took me an another three hours to find my way back to the station. I was just in time to take the last train home.
I had hoped to meet you that night.
Bernard
My favorite lullaby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv94m_S3QDo
@Mieke
That night, I booked a hotel in Ghent not far away from Saint-Jacobs. It felt like a trip to a foreign city. The day after, I visited an exhibition at the Guislain museum, where I perceived an Arnon Grunberg lookalike doing some research. Strange days, indeed.

Goldberg variations: Hannibal Lector’s favorite music !
Bernard
The older I get, the more I wonder how the human flesh taste like. Imagine you could devour a little piece of your favorite writer, i.c. Arnon. All these things I can do now, without the risk of going to prison.
@Mieke
Sorry, I am not very interested in gastronomy (and I am a moderate vegetarian).
(By the way, never underestimate the cruelty nor the insanity of so called normal people.)
Bernard
Don't take it all too seriously. I'm not that obsessed with Arnon that I want to force myself into his private sphere.
I only wanted to point out that due to my illness some behaviour becomes more accceptable because it is inherent to it.
@Mieke
Oef...