civilized

Of course, almost any country might seem more civilized than The Netherlands: after all this little nation of ours often shows the characteristics of a backward village.

Just think, in Germany the trains actually still run according to timetables! But then, compared to the Netherlands even Belgium seems more civilized.

But where did things go wrong in the Netherlands? Are extreme liberalism and civilization mutually exclusive?

Bert Hesper

A while ago you vowed to never comment on this site again. When and why did you change your mind?

Measures of civilisation

Saying that the Netherlands is extremely liberal is as ridiculous as the suggestion that the Netherlands is not a civilised county. Note that Arnon says that if you would base your conclusion on the quality of railway service , you could reach the conclusion that the Netherlands is less civilised than Germany. "If" and "could" being the operative words here.
The Dutch railway system is simply a lot busier than the German system. If you would base your conclusion on the quality of 17th century painting, the philosophy of Erasmus or the ablity to protect land from water your conclusion might be different.

Measures of civilisation

Saying that the Netherlands is extremely liberal is as ridiculous as the suggestion that the Netherlands is not a civilised county. Note that Arnon says that if you would base your conclusion on the quality of railway service , you could reach the conclusion that the Netherlands is less civilised than Germany. "If" and "could" being the operative words here.
The Dutch railway system is simply a lot busier than the German system. If you would base your conclusion on the quality of 17th century painting, the philosophy of Erasmus or the ablity to protect land from water your conclusion might be different.

comments

Dear Mr Arnon Grunberg,
Why did I change my mind?
Don't know, but I did.
At the time all these comments from me on language and spelling became something of a losing battle.
Nobody seemed to care whatsoever.
Your comments on my 'self-appointed teaching' , my supposed character, and so on, my having 'no style', prompted me to just give up.
Still, most of your readers of this blog don't give a damn about their language, and their spelling.
I am trying to ignore them, but someone like Milan v Opmeer really got me going again!
His use of the English (& Dutch!) language, his spelling, his 'way of talking/thinking', just got my anger going again....
Perhaps that explains my sending some comments again...
But if you want me to stay away from your blog, I'll do so.
Regards,
bert

I wonder why Milan is so quiet.

@ Milan

Sorry, that wasn't very civilized.

@Bert

good to hear your anger is flowing again!

anger (Look Back In Anger)

@ Mieke & h an
Yes indeed, what happened to Milan?
I hope I didn't shut him up forever....
[This book of his.... ; one of the few books you can judge by its cover.]
My God, isn't that a civilized remark?
Mieke, perhaps it is because of you, I returned to comment on this blog of Arnon's...
Some time ago, you made a mention of your mental condition.
I happen to have the same problem. Sometimes I get these terrible psychoses, lasting for a few days, if I am unlucky.
But most times, I know they are coming, and prepare for them:
I concentrate on music and the TV, and ignore anything else I 'hear'.
Since 1990, I have had about five of these episodes.
So I am a schizo like you ! But a happy schizo (G. Komrij).
Do you think a writer like Arnon Grunberg attracts people like us?
He might....
Dearest greetings all (including Mr Milan v Opmeer....)

h an

You like angry comments/angry people?
You're right, getting angry proves you're alive.
I will try and keep alive for some time to come.
If only to read Arnon's books....

@Bert

I already realised you had a mental problem, I just didn't know wich one. I experienced you as completely stressed-out. Anyhow take good care of yourself.
As for myself, I was really on the verge of loosing my mind completely. I'll never forget how dispersed my thoughts were, how I had lost all cognitive abilities. Very frightning and painful - a constant mental torture-, but I am already a lot better and feel how I'm regaining my strenght bit by bit every year. My first (and only) goal now is to finish my sculpting course in the next two years. I also started to work on a novel with a lot of western philosophy in it. That keeps me busy.
Lots of strenght, Mieke

Bert Hesper

No one noticed you were gone, as no one will notice you're back. We're very sorry about that.

bert hesper

What I meant is that in my opinion it is better to have your anger flowing then to have it build up. I can imagine it must feel relieving, having anger flowing out of you and leaving you behind, slightly lighter. However, I would recommend you to find another place to let it flow.

stressed-out?

@ Mieke
[ 'wich one' - which one.
'loosing' - losing
'frightning' - frightening
'strenght' - strength ]

You already realized I was having a mental problem?
'completely stressed-out' no less!
Please rest assured, in fact I am a very laid-back kind of person, who might be called slightly 'autistic' (these days), but definitely not 'stressed-out'.
I usually take everything as it comes; and my comments on this blog were remarks on language mostly.
You felt my comments to be 'over the top' somehow?
Signs of a 'stressed-out' person? Having some mental problem?
I do have these periods of serious trouble (TIA's & an occasional psychosis), but for most of my days I am all right.

A NOVEL with a lot of western philosophy in it?
Something like Stefan Themerson's 'Professor's Mmaa's Lecture' e.g. or Bertrand Russell's 'Satan in the Suburbs and other stories'?
A new 'Gulliver's Travels'?
Good idea! I will certainly buy such a book!
But have to buy and read 'Huid en haar' first of course.
---------------------------------------
@ Carlos Dee
On 'extreme liberalism and civilization': I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Xenophobia, right-wing sentiments (our Dutch 'Tea Party'), downright hatred of everything 'cultural' ('elitist'), dismissed as 'leftist hobbies', are the exact opposite of 'extreme liberalism'. Aren't they?
=========================================

"Bert Hesper
No one noticed you were gone, as no one will notice you're back. We're very sorry about that."
Have you read Arnon Grunberg's post on my returning here?!
You are not sorry, you're just being facetious...

Procès-verbal by the spelling police

Don't worry about it. All the cases are thrown out of court. Spelling in the English language has been ruled insane.

Steve

"Spelling in the English language has been ruled insane."
By whom pray? YOU?
You need a phonetic spelling of any language?
Or even better: just your own way of spelling words I guess...
Fine, let's all start building a new Tower Of Babel....
... Talking about civilization....

Yes, by me

I'm an expert at it. It's my native language. I make my living with the language. The spelling in the English language is insane. It is an undeveloped language that way. Het nederlands is much saner, just less appreciated. This is not a school course. We don't need you to grade these people's attempts to deal with insanity.

@ Bert Hesper

Deformation of the language, written and oral, is one of the fields were damage done to my brain occurs , especially when I'm tired. I know my texts need a lot of editing, even my Dutch. I'll have to live with it.

@ Steve

I don't quite get your point.
The English spelling is insane, and I should not .... what exactly?
Correct or point out spelling mistakes?
Don't play 'spelling police'?
You want to have a right to your own spelling?
'Cause you cannot help making them?
Sure, use your own spelling then, be a redneck, KKK, 'uncivilized'....
Sorry, I don't buy your arguments, if any.
"We don't need you to grade these people's attempts to deal with insanity."
What does this mean? I'm not 'grading' any attempts, let alone 'to deal with insanity'. (???) Where's the grading? 'these people', who do you mean, and I am 'grading' them?
You mean: correctling their spelling?
I am sorry, you're talking gibberish here.

@ Mieke
Of course, when you (we) experience these 'brain problems', our language abilities may suffer a lot.
I for one, cannot find the right word anymore, I may lose the ability to name things etc...
And no doubt during these fits we might lose the ability to spell words correctly as well.
I prefer to remain silent then.

L.David

It's nice if you notice someone is back. Then you don't have to feel sorry.

You don't get my point and now you are comparing neurological deficits. Never mind. Have a nice day. Pinch your nurse if you have one.