Isn't that how Mayu calls you? Tio?
Wish Marianne a happy birthday from me.

Mieke

Yes, Mayu calls me (sometimes) tio.
But El Tio is something completely different.

Your godson looks very happy. Will you publish the secret of El Tio?

I like tales very much. Is he something like the Golem? Please tell us.

Religion and boredom

A devil-like creature worshipped in the mines. That's quite strange. Would one worship the one he's closest to? Yesterday I had a serious talk with Muzzy, a collegue, about becoming a muslim. He mentionned Cat Stevens and a Russian astronaut. With a girl-friend I discussed my circumcision, she's pro (I'm still not too fond about the idea not being able to get it back ever again).

You got me hooked for reading Coetzee’s latest novel especially concerning religion and boredom.
It has surprised me how many people – even the non practisers of a religion - are keen to obey the command of circumcision, whilst so many other prescriptions are easily abandoned or forgotten. I tend to believe that there is a great need for blood, pain and tears to convince ourselves and others that are convictions have to be taken seriously.

Girlzzzzz…
That’s the spirit! Personally I enjoy these kind of discussions much more then the usual trivial comments like:
“I ate llama when I was 4”, “My uncle bought shock absorbers the other day. You think it’s coincidence?”, Or the extra trivial ones like“ what a cute photo”.
Mieke
The passion you have for Arnon’s work is amazing. I lack this passion since I experience moments of boredom in my life. I do however find it peculiar (to say the least) that you see our comments as a trivial part of his work.
Manon
I Agree, I think passion can not exclude boredom. I will dare to say that I am very passionate person. I also think triviality is necessary considering the fact that ALL is relative. The crucial can only be experienced as such only when we experience the trivial.
Anna,
Trivial for the one is not for the other. Useful for the one is useless for the other. Still, I think you are in the minority when placing Arnon’s books on the same level of importance as our comments. That has nothing to do with the question of who is a better person. That’s an odd question by itself.
Noa
I think many commentators on this blog assume intelligent people never get bored. Others think passionate people never get bored. In any case boredom is a sign that something is supposedly wrong with you. I get bored quite often. And please don’t apologize when writing a bitchy comment from time to time. Just write it, spice it up and enjoy. I will too. I Promise.
Arnon,
What is the connection between boredom and religion according to Coetzee?
What is the competition about, you think?
I tried to acquire the kind of discipline I would like to have, but failed. I guess I was to undisciplined.
An army can not function without discipline. I would say though that it has little to do with SELF discipline. This is my last comment regarding army, so don’t even bother.
Dens,
Yesterday jeuwish today moslim, tommorow...?

Ilanit, I will most probably never be a muslim, but that doens't mean I'm not interested in it. I just don't love it like I love judism.
My indecisiveness has a lot to do with it all. That's why I got a piercing and not a tattoo. My queste for selfdiscipline led me (among other things) to doing this job. It's not the army, far from, but it has resemblances. I lack(ed) (self)discipline.

Dens

I worked for 6 months as entertainment stuff (or animation as you call it) in a hotel in Eilat, Israel. I can assure you it doesn’t resembles the army in any way.

Dens

Devil-lile because El Tio is no exactly a devil in the Christian sense. Would you like to be worshipped in the mines?

@IIanit
I think it does resembles the Belgian Army (the former conscript army, as I knew it), although it has some merits too. I think Dens is referring to the Belgian Army - the main discipline consisted of holding your drinks.

Jan Thys

In the US many non-believers circumcise their sons for medical reasons. Last winter the NY Times reported that circumcision might prevent HIV.
Besides this there are other explanations why people do circumcise their sons. It has not so much to do with blood and tears, compared to the slaughter of a chicken a circumcision is not that bloody. The circumcision is part of the union, to not circumcise is to step out of the union.
See for more details my novel The Jewish Messiah.

Yes, circumcision would 'prevent' hiv, that is: it would diminish the chances by 4. A muslim argument for doing it as well is: you won't be fucking yourself anymore (which leads to the question if we can use words like fuck and suck on this website).

Today is a Holy day for muslims, as today the startingdate for Ramadam was annonced: september 13. This day is called something like 'Kandi' and it involves not drinking on this day (in Turkey). A female collegue treated me with some chocoolate coockies and fruitjuice, not because she liked to do it, but Allah would see it as a good deed and she would get good points (she said).

Israel

Maybe the entertainment in Israel doesn't resemble it, but in Turkey it does. We have a strict scedule, we train for missions (which we call shows), we get punished if we break rules (punishment: doing something stupid, like standing in front of a restaurant and say good evening to everyone). The Hierarchy is the same as well, very present. We don't kill persons, but we sure break marriages.

Ilanit

What does it mean to be a very passionate person?
I’m not sure if the comment ‘I ate llama when I was four’ is more trivial than the comment ‘I dare to say that I’m a very passionate person.’ I think the comment ‘I ate llama when I was four’ is more precise and more telling.
I think it’s better to read Coetzee than to wait for my summarization. It might even cure your boredom for a couple of hours.
Competition about who is the wittiest, the most intelligent etcetera. The obvious, trivial things. You are a competitive person, you know these things. (Maybe you are not competitive enough to cure yourself from boredom.)
Boredom is not a sign that is something is wrong with you. When there is no longer any existential threat to your life the boredom starts and the fight against is.
That you feel so bad about being bored is telling.
When an army or a commander is able to force discipline upon you and you are not able to force this discipline upon yourself you are weak.
Maybe you confuse being weak with being bored.
Believe me boredom and weakness are not the same.
The last words about boredom are written by L. Cohen:
"They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom for trying to change the system from within."

Ilanit

Your comment about entertainment stuff is by far the best you ever wrote.
Could you explain what it means to be entertainment stuff?
What did you have to do to be entertainment stuff?
Was there are rigid selection?
I agree that entertainment stuff and an operational army cannot be compared -- although many armies do provide entertainment to their soldiers.
Maybe Dens would like to entertain the troops?

Arnon

To be a very passionate person is to have boundless enthusiasm. To experience many “wow’s” and “ooh’s” if you may. It’s the willingness to do above and beyond for that which you think really matters (not only when it’s convenient) and to let yourself experience powerful emotions regardless the fear factor.
I never excluded myself from the triviality of the comments. I also did not stated that my comments are more telling and precise. Personally I prefer the comments when they create a discussion, a movement. That’s all that I was saying. Obviously these kind of discussions are not tolerated. At least, not without being blamed for trying to be trivially wittier or smarter. So let me just ad: bla, bla, bla. Ok?
I didn’t say that boredom is a sign of anything. I tried to answer Noa’s question by trying to analyse the other commentators rejection of any implication of them being bored sometime. I do not feel bad about the fact that I am bored so I’m curious where I “told” that according to you. And yes, I know you will not answer.
I don’t confuse being bored and being weak. Lack of SELF discipline is the purest manifestation of weakness.

My comment about entertainment stuff

Arnon, don’t patronise me. Please. It’s annoying and completely unnecessary.

Dens,

No further explanation needed. Jan Thys already told me you were referring to the Belgium army.

Ilanit

Nobody is patronizing you. Discussions about anything are tolerated here.
Your description of a person with passion sounds to me like the description of a person without any sense of perspective.
Could you tell us more about your entertainment stuff in Eilat?

Ilanit

Passion and enthusiasm are two different things.To be passionate doesn´t mean or even include that you are enthusiastic. If someone is enthusiastic he is easy to be inspired. Passion is a deeper feeling than enthusiasm.

The mines

Tio Jorge, El Tio, protector of miners. They worship El Tio and Pachmama each morning.
Make two wishes and give El Tio a drink of alcohol, take a drink yourself and your wish is bound to come true.....

Manon,

Being so strongly opinionated as you are, I strongly suggest you start using additional sources then Wikipedia for your knowledge. You will be surprised to find the word enthusiasm in some of the definitions concerning passion. Passion is obviously much more and a very broad concept, but when asked what I mean by stating that about myself I answer exactly that. That’s passionate to me alright?

Arnon,

For a Spartan I seem like a person without any sense of perspective, even hysterical. I agree.
I think it’s better when again in Israel to visit one of the hotels in Eilat then to wait for my description. It might help your boredom as well.

Manon and Ilanit

It is impossible to use the words “passionate” or “passion” without being slightly ironic. (Unless you are New Age.)
Saying about yourself that you are passionate borders on the ridiculous.
The meaning of the sentence “I’m passionate” equals the meaning of the sentence “I’m a fascist.” Both words “fascism” and “passion” suffer from extreme inflation – of course there are other words that suffer from inflation as well – I’m not sure why you insist on using the words passion and passionate.
Is it the old neurotic fear that you are not alive? Maybe it’s time to get over this fear and start enjoying not being completely alive. At least then we don’t have to discuss the subject of passion anymore. It’s a small step for mankind but a big step for some of the commentators on this site.
(And to avoid misunderstandings, this is not an attempt to censor the discussion, just a modest endeavor to enlighten some of the participants in this discussion.)

Ilanit

I like being opinionated.I enjoy it. And I only use Wikipedia as a source of knowledge.Are there any other sources?I don´t know any but Wikipedia.

Arnon

I don´t have a fear of not being alive.

Arnon

And I totally disagree with what you said about passion.

Arnon,

I used the word as a reply for being “accused” of not being passionate which supposedly was the reason of why experience boredom. I am a bit new age though, but all is quite simple when left in it’s context.
This is not the first time you refer to my fears. When I said that (in private, by the way- not that private is something you respect as a member of the American press) I was in a kind of a crisis and slightly drunk, I don’t feel that any more so you can just drop it!

Ilanit

Maybe you should get used to the fact that a more or less educated guess is not an accusation. Being bored is not a sign that there is something rotten in the person who is bored. It is impossible not to be bored from time to time. Being bored always might be a sign of depression but that is something else.
When people say you lack passion I would take it as a compliment. Unless they mean: “I don’t like you in bed.”
But please let’s not confuse sex and passion.
And there are good reasons to despise passion that is not connected to self-discipline.
Furthermore, it is hard to tell where the primitive reaction stops and the passion starts.
Wasn’t the man who wanted to kill me a couple of weeks ago because he thought I had fucked his wife passionate? I would say very passionate and very primitive.
The idea that passion by itself – whatever we exactly mean with passion – is a positive force is rather naïve.
I deeply despise the romanticism that is connected to this naïve believe in passion as something good.
(Which is not to say that I don't understand why people believe this.)

Ilanit

I insist on your description of your work in Eilat.

Manon

Disagree with me. Make my day.

Ybe

It takes more than booze to feed El Tio.

Arnon

Any time.

Arnon

Many years ago, while serving IDF, I took an oath that I was willing to die in order to protect my country. (to be honest, I don’t think I can take this oath again and mean it) Death was never a positive or romantic issue in my mind, but I felt passionate about my task. I think that people want to feel something in order to feel alive, but maybe you are right about the primitive issue. I can not believe you despising it deeply but talking about your fears is obviously a no-go area.
My work In Eilat was a great experience showing me already in a quite young age (not yet 18) that everything guest boring after a while. I had a room in the hotel itself, overlooking the swimming pool. I was in charge of the aerobics in the morning, and together with my colleges we had the usual daily swimming pool games, daily shows (cabaret of singing and dancing) in the club and just joking around with the guests during few hours of the day, eating breakfast with them and dinner and an hour or so in the afternoon in the lobby. OK? Can we drop this non-issue now?

Ilanit

I don’t think that your life as an entertainer in E. is a non-issue. Isn’t there a big difference between the theory of dying for your country and the actual practice?
Today a Dutch soldier died in Afghanistan. It is hard to say that he died for his country.
Is there a difference between feeling passionate about your task and the wish to do your work as good as possible?
Try to remember all the details of your work in E. I will make a place on this site where you can publish your memoirs, My Life as an Entertainer or How I got Bored.
Remember: your well-being is my first concern.
All I ask in return is that the promise that when the day comes that I knock on your door and ask you to take the oath that you are willing to die for me, you open the door and you take the oath.
It’s a small favor I ask, given the fact that I spend so much time healing you.

@Arnon
I am familiar with The Jewish Messiah – I liked it very much. For a sign of union then I do prefer a kind of baptism with water, by the way. I always feel uncomfortable when people pointing knives at genitals. Of course there is always a (medical) explanation, but I remember reading that circumcision in the USA was considered a good method against masturbation. (as female circumcision?). I think the latter reason bears more truth. I also think a lot of the ‘union’ is about submission and power, and of course mutual supposed help and protection against the horrors of life and dead. Can we face the void alone?

Arnon,

Since I didn’t die for my country I don’t know if there’s a difference between the theory and the actual practice. Or did I misunderstood your question?
Although he didn’t die for his country, I want to believe the Dutch soldier died for a greater cause. I thank my whole existence to American and Canadian Soldiers who died while freeing my grandparents from concentration camps. They didn’t die for their country as well.
I think the feeling of passion toward your task lead to the wish to do your work as good as possible, but lets just loose this word since you feel so strongly about it.
This is the second time you offer me some space on your blog. Is trying to mock me in public such an appealing idea for you? And why would you like me to be willing to die for you? Will it say something important about you or about me?

@IIanit
I have quit the habit of thanking people for something I did not ask for. Be careful who you say thanks to, mostly they send you the bill afterwards. Do you know why you were conceived? I did and I can only say it was for a greater cause. Greater causes always need blood, a lot of blood.

@ Ilanit

I am a great fan of reciprocity. Don't you think if Arnon demands such an oath from you, he should make the same oath to you? Don't you think it's much more healthier to make such an aoth to another living soul than to a country.
Ilanit I'm sure nobody will mock you if you decide to write an entry.

By the way, most of the time, I am so grateful and polite that I even say tanks to the elevator for bringing me up to the fourth floor… Not consistent at all, those mood swings.

Jan Thys

Thanking my existence (as second generation to holocaust survivors) to the fact foreign soldiers died for other then their country is something different than being grateful. I am grateful though and aware of the fact that everything has a price. That doesn’t mean by no means I see my personal life as THE greater cause.
I don’t think that blood is necessary for every greater cause.
I was conceived by accident. So at least as for my parents- no reason other then bad luck.

Mieke

A country is a concept. When I took the oath it was the feeling that I help protect my family and friends. Personally I don’t care for land and no land or temple is in my eyes worth dying for. In order to take an oath you need to consider something sacred, I don’t think Arnon does. He is, however a big supporter of reciprocity. He wants my oath in exchange for his healing services. It’s the healing and killing ritual, I guess.
Do you also think I am in need of healing?

Luck

We are all conceived by accident.

The holocaust has had a major impact on the demographics worldwide, was awful and is one of the most important causes of the current misère in the middle east. But on a personal, genetical level the holocaust is as important as the deadly fall of the ladder of a medieval farmer, married to one of your great-great-grandmothers that later had a child with one of your great-great-grandfathers.

The permanent hereditary damage to your frontal lobe might well be caused by a drunk night of one of your ancestors conceiving a child with a lustful but somewhat simple minded alcoholic instead of her rather intelligent husband. Or one of your ancestors might have miraculously escaped the complete burning down and murder of a late 11th century village. Even the fact that your mother didn't have a burning headache a few decades ago contributes to the 'lucky' fact that you are alive today in your current form.

So free yourself of the burden of 'luck' of your grandparents and accept your being as no more than a universal fact of life.

@ Arnon

I know the meaning of both the words 'fascist' and 'passion' is deflating, but what always puzzled me is how fascists perceive themselves as being very passionate. So to me , being a descendant of a fascist family, there is a very strong ironical connotation to the word 'passionate'.

@Sander,
I was conceived on a special purpose (like a Lebensborn Child in Nazi Germany). not by accident. But my fate is not slightly better, I am afraid. Maybe worse, who’s to tell?

@Mieke Dutoit,
My mother descended from a fascist/religious family (the Blacks) and my father from a socialist/communist branch (the Whites, in Belgium).

As a child I got merely confused, therefore I am strongly interested in backgrounds.

Sander

My friend was busy for years taking hormones and applying IVF until she finally got a baby. Will you consider this baby being conceived by accident?
I mentioned the holocaust story in connection to my statement that soldiers can die for a greater cause, even if it’s not their own country.
Personally I believe any given moment (no matter how terrible) in our personal and less personal history is necessary. To see that you need to step backwards to a much greater perspective. But then again, according to Arnon I’m a person with no sense of perspective.
As mentioned earlier I’m a bit new age and for quite some time also busy with the Jewish mystic. I believe children choose their parents before they are born

@IIanit
You do not need to take all that responsibility as a child. (I know it is a common believe in some occult circles.)
To master a bit of your own life is a difficult task enough.

@ Jan , My entirely family was/is deeply black. Unfortunately it wasn't counterbalanced by whites in the family. My big concern is and was to what extent my vieuws on life can be perceived as fascist thoughts and beliefs. But to know that , you first need a clear understanding about fascism.
@ Ilanit, than I am very curious about my reasons to choose my parents, especially because I have a crush on judaîsm since my very early childhood, wich is considering my background not very likely.

@ Ilanit

Even when an enormous effort is taken to conceive, the fact that this baby grows from a certain egg, a certain sperm at exactly this time is more luck than choice, in the perspective of the newborn.

I responded to your comment because this wasn't the first time you used the horrible history of your family as a means to make your story more trustworthy. We are all holocaust survivors. I hope your identity isn't based on the madness of a nation so many years ago.

If your believe about children is true, there must be a lot of stupid kids. Choosing abusive, mean or even murderous parents.

Sander

Refreshing your memory:
The first time the holocaust was mentioned it was Arnon who mentioned it and I opposed.
This time it was said in the context of appreciation for soldiers who risk their life and/or die for other causes then protecting their countries. It seems to me the you want to argue regardless of what I am saying.

Sander

Refreshing your memory:
The first time the holocaust was mentioned it was Arnon who mentioned it and I opposed.
This time it was said in the context of appreciation for soldiers who risk their life and/or die for other causes then protecting their countries. It seems to me the you want to argue regardless of what I am saying.

To all

I would like to stress that my conception was not an accident.

Sander

The history of your family is probably part of this thing called identity. This doesn’t mean that there is only one way to respond to this history.
I assume that most if not all of the commentators have been born after 1945. They cannot be called survivors of the holocaust.
But if you are trying to say that Ilanit should be a little bit more careful while evoking history in order to explain her actions I agree.

Mieke

A crush on Judaism is not to be trusted, again read The Jewish Messiah.

Jan Thys

I have no strong feelings against male circumcision when it happens at an early age. The fact that some people do have strong feelings against it must be grown out of this old fear of castration.
A piercing through the tongue is probably less healthy. It ruins your teeth.
A tattoo gives in my opinion less esthetic pleasure.
People often feel the need to alter their bodies. Compared to other possible alterations the male circumcision is a minor one.
The Dutch novelist Maarten ‘t Hart once argued that circumcised males get twenty or thirty percent less pleasure while experiencing oral sex.
I have no complaints against oral sex, and I’m happy that it doesn’t give me even more pleasure. Everything should be limited. Even pleasure.

@ Arnon

I cherish my crush on judaism very much, with moderation though, but I still think it beats antisemitism.
Concerning the Jewish Messias Xavier is very much a prodigy of his on family, due to have the same effect as Hitler, i.c. the destruction of the world.

@ Arnon

Since you started about The Jewish Messiah, I still want to sincerely thank you for your novel. I think you did a great job with the rough material.