That movie left me with a very nasty taste in the mouth (and I do not mean the tripe’s). I can recommend again the book by Frank Vande Veire (Cultuurfilosoof; doceert aan de Hogeschool te Gent' (2003) 'Neem en eet, dit is je lichaam’.
This is one movie that really disturbed me, almost unbearable to watch.

@Arnon
FYI, there is an emergency government in Belgium now!

Neria! Where have you gone? You are missing in action.

The thing with orgies is that when someone doens't pay attention to me for more than 2 minutes I feel rejected.
The most disturbing movie I recently saw, is "A hole in my heart" by the swedish director who also made Tilsammen and Fucking Amal.

Jan T

The mayor of the city of Kortrijk was a fortune teller after all.
I'm not sure if this movie left me with a bad taste in the mouth, it left me slightly uncomfortable, but Pasolini's movie does not send the audience home without hope: there is the comfort of watching other people's pain.
In this sense Salo is truly perverse, but one cannot deny the fact that Pasolini states that there is hope for the true pervert, as he long as he loses all humanity.
Maybe we should treat both book and movie as a neurotic fantasy.
But because of the presence of Nazism this is difficult to do in the case of the movie. It is very realistic.

Salo

I saw this movie more than two years ago. I can remember that I was a bit bored. I wonder what that says about me. Maybe I should see it again. People (can) change.

@Arnon
You summarized Frank Vande Veire very well. Indeed the movie throws you in our darkest and forbidden fantasy, beyond all fun and cheap thrills right into the abyss of sheer banality.

@Coen van Beelen
Take a look at a documentary of SS men shooting Jews. Look at the faces of the SS men. What do you see? Not so much of sadistic laughter, but mostly sheer boredom. In a certain way you understood the movie.

@Arnon
Correction: of course I mean ‘It is as if you are summarizing Frank Vande Veire, very well’

MIA

@Margot Morgan
You do not have to believe me but sometimes I have to laugh for more than an hour about your dry and humorous comments and I am serious now.

@Arnon
It turns out the be a ‘near emergency government in Belgium’

Jan T

I'm not sure about sheer banality, sadism is not by definition banality.
So Mr. Verhofstadt is going to solve the crisis in Belgium. What do you have to say about that?

Coen van B

The movie is a little bit repetitive, but being bored, no. It depends of course on what you are used to on the field of sadism.

Sadism

@Arnon
I think that is exactly the difference between Salo and the so called sadistic horror movies. I see sadism as an act that gives some pleasure to the perpetrator, in horror movies you normally see a sadistic smile or obsession. A small child is not sadistic, it mostly satisfies his curiosity when ‘torturing’ an animal.
Salo on the contrary offers you only an indifferent view, that is what makes it so disturbing for me. There is no more pleasure in the eye of the beholder. The view is bored, mechanic and cold. (Maybe the same about ‘A hole in my heart’ but I did not see that movie).

Thanks, Jan.
I love this House of Love...

Where is the picutre from?

on Belgium and it's government

Today's commentary in De Tijd was certainly upclearing.

Pjötr

Why?

Berni

Flickr.

Arnon & Jan

I cannot denie there's some sadism in me, but if it ever comes out this way... we'll see. Let's say I keep you in touch.

Margot

i'm not sure you're not cynical. i can only be boring because sadism to me has nothing to do with sexuality. Like art, war zones, white slavery etc it's a quest for truth where the light falls. Too much effort is wasted on ends. Oscar tried telling me a couple of times that dreams meant to confuse us, i think he missed it that i agree with him.
i kept quite cause i'm a guest here. i think the blog itself is another field for acting out stuff, now, when the gastheer surprises the guests with his unexpected rules (maybe he needs to make sure he's on the controlling side now). It's interesting.
If this reply is way too coded and you want me to elaborate on anything, please let me know.

'quiet' of course,

pardon :)

Neria! You're back! I wasn't being cynical, okay, maybe I was, just a little bit, but that's because my life is so boring and cynicism really is the last thing to go.
Did you find a job yet? Did you finish reading the asielzoeker? I'm a bit worried about Arnon as we move from discussing topics like the military to sadism and sexual perversion.

One thing I really disliked about Jerusalem is that they didn't seem to have any good international bookstores there. Am I wrong? Also, if you were to vote for best and worst book of 2007, what would it be?

to Arnon

It uncovered the meekness of the saviour.

Dear Margot,

Very rarely do i buy books in stores. Last Friday i went to buy a local newspaper in a bookshop, only because i'm still looking for a job and i saw a sale table offering 4 novels in 100 Nis (that's 18 Euros). i had no choice, i bought four but then i knew it was a set up. The purchase could have make sense hadn't i bought Philip Roth and Saul Bellow in Hebrew. Whenever i can, i prefer reading the original texts (Harry Potter is an exemption, i read it in Dutch. i find the changes of names funny, but on a different level 'krijsen' is much tangible to me than 'scream' which has 'cream' in it and brings to my mind foolish Hollywood horror films). i can't concentrate in Hebrew so i usually buy books through Amazon and my Dutch friends are in charge of books printed in Dutch (i can't order from Bol.com, i think they ship only within Europe). i'm used to the fact that in many aspects Israel is a province, but nowadays with internet i feel more and more independent.
i'm still in the first third of 'De Asielzoeker' first, because i was very upset of Arnon, and second, the more information i gather about his thinking process the slower my reading tempo gets. From more or less streaming pace i slow down to Sylvia Plath gear. i find myself marking sentences, something i only did during my studies. Arnon was right the second time, warning me not to turn this blog into addiction, but mental entanglements are always much easy than feeling. i prefer doing that than preparing myself to a potential job interview at Yad vaShem museum (they need a secretary) and feel lifeless.

By the way, ever since i read '84, Charing Cross Road' i'm against accumulating books anyway.

Why are your life so boring?

Best book

i never follow any specific current in the literary world so i can't tell which book was the best or the worse at any year. Also, my very annoying and time consuming jobs sabotage my reading schwung. When i was young i worked four years night shifts in a hotel and did five nights every week. Iri Rikin, who was then (and now too) a literary critic in several papers here, did the other two nights. i was bulimic and read a novel each night. Iri kept feeding me books. Unlike him, nobody pays me for reading so there's no chance i'll continue reading a 'worse' book, and since i'm not prepared to be tortured i wouldn't be able to tell which is the worst one (one has to have some kind of integrity and read through the whole book in order to place a judgment, but when i only read for myself i don't have to read bad stuff till the end).
Even if i'm having hard time liking Arnon, so far 'Tirza' is the best novel i read not only this year, but in many years (but please remember that i plunged into non-literary text the last few years).

So, which is the best and which is the worse novel of 2007 to your opinion?

Neria

How come you feel lifeless if you have a boyfriend?

I don't think you sholud gather information about a writers thinking process. Books are well written or badly written, that's all. Some writers have great thought, but are unable to phrase them and vice versa. If this blog is your only addiction then it's harmless, not to worry so. My life is boring coz I live in a sleepy town in the Netherlands. I really think it's time to get out.
Maybe I should take the job at Yad vaShem and you can spend time here.
Do you recommend reading Charing Cross Road?

no, no

I meant best and worst excluding Arnons books for a change.
This book I really loved - and am sure all male readers will despise - is Eat Love Pray by Elizabeth Gilbert. And the worst book must have been anything that was written in honour of Harry Mulisch turning eighty. Or was it ninety?
I know it's hard to continue reading bad books, but I'm also fascinated by them.
You just wonder: surely the writer doesn't think this is good?
Some books are monuments to the ego, or a way to make some cash.

Pjötr

Aren't all saviors meek?
And who is the savior in Belgium, Verhofstadt? Or the king?

Neria

Sometimes it really helps that you think before you start writing.

Arnon

"[D]an had je een vijand, en dat was wat je nodig hebt om niet alleen te zijn, om aan het leven te blijven hangen". So do you want to make me your enemy?

Can you please answer the question i asked you in 'No other option'?

This is your site and i was invited to place a comment here. Do you regret inviting me to do so? Would you like me not to continue placing any comments here? You already banned me from writing for 24 hours. Do you want to silence me permanently? Do i have to 100% agree with you on every point in order to communicate with others under your roof? Are you angry with me, and if yes, why?

Thanks Margot,

i'm going to read about 'Eat Love Pray' by Elizabeth Gilbert.

(i hope i did enough thinking before replying to you ;))

Margot

The idea of working in Yad vaShem was the cause of me feeling lifeless (although it should be in an office). If you are lucky enough to know what your real needs are and if you're lucky enough to find a partner who's capable of fulfilling your needs you might indeed not feel lifeless often. Anyway, a partner is not a shield.

Neria

What was your question?

To Arnon, on Belgium

Is it correct to conclude that your curiousity on the matter has increased?

Your first question is requires more philosphical gift than I can introduce into this debate.
On the second matter: Verhofstadt. The king's duty was to send out a saviour. When I read today's editorial in De Standaard (with biblical refferences and more), I thought of the King as a second hand Almighty who also once did his best to save his people.

I provide you with the link to the article mentioned above.

http://www.standaard.be/Meningen

correction

Please read: 'Your first question requires' . Not 'is required'.

I apologize.

To avoid

To avoid all misunderstandings I rephrase my last sentence.

I thought of the King as a second hand Almighty, and how about the first hand Almighty also once did his best to save his people by sending out a Saviour

Arnon

"[A]ggression does not exclude love by definition" - please give an example.

to Neria

I urge you to read Tirza, Neria.

To Pjötr

i suppose you have just tried answering on behalf of Arnon. i have read Tirza very carefully. Are you saying that murdering your daughter is an act of love?

Pjötr

Please define 'love'.

Pjötr

My interest in the crisis in Belgium is slowly increasing, yes.
Thanks for the link.

Neria

Read my books.
And by the way, yes, also murder can be an act of love.
I believe the French law was (and maybe is) extremely lenient for those who committed the so-called crime passionel.
I

Arnon

i read your books. It is possible that i read other things in them than what you might read. i need to know how you define love. This is very crucial. i came across this sentence few minutes ago: '...die het verschil tussen angst en lust niet meer kenden...' i agree with one definition of 'love' but i'm willing to learn other definitions too. Murder/sacrifice etc. are not concepts that work well with the definition of love i'm most comfortable with. They absolutely contradict each other.
I will appreciate it if you will expalin love to me.

Neria

Last Saturday, a 77-year-old Italian man shot and killed his 82-year-old wife in a hospital ward. She had been suffering from Alzheimer's disease for eight years.

Neria

Love comes in many forms; all I can say is that love does not have necessarily to be pleasant for one on the receiving end.
More interesting than the definition of love is for me the definition of aggression.
In my opinion your presence on this site, the sheer quantity of your comments, would qualify as an act of aggression.
But then I say to myself: it’s because Neria loves you so much.
Because she cannot have your body she is rubbing her mind against your site, and maybe also her body, who knows.

Oscar W

You have been silent for a while. Was the word “threesome” offensive to you or to Laura or to the two of you?

Oscar

This was a good example.

By the way i did answer all your questions at 'Children'.

Neria

To love someone means forcing your control on that person.
To be loved by someone means that you have to surrender.
So at the core the concept of love has to do with power.
Today I was the big joke at my work. Actually I am always the big joke at my work. They hate me because I don't accept their love.

Arnon

i respond. If the other participants and you were not replying i would soon stop. i don't lecture to the air, i'm not that pathetic.

i rub my mind on yours and others not instead of fulfilling my biological needs. If you do hold to your observation then what does it tell about you?

David M

What does 'hate' means? How do they love and hate you at the same time?

Neria

Hate means not being in control.

David M

Not being in control over themselves? i'm not sure i got it, i thought they love you (like they want to have a control over you, according to your definition of love) and you refuse to be under their control. But how do they hate you? Just by not succeeding?
Does a parent who forces his child to eat loves him?

Arnon

At any given moment you can ask me to stop responding if the sheer quantity of my replies burdens you. You don't have to read them if you don't like doing so, and if i ask you a question you can ignore me. What kept you answering all this time?!

All you have to do is just write: 'don't ever place a comment here' and i will stop.

Neria

A self-appointed lecturer should not be surprised that the air is her most loyal audience.
I don’t want to enter a discussion about your biological needs, I’m sure you have biological needs and we all pray that somebody will come to your house to take care of these needs.
And once again: this site is open for everybody, also for human beings who happen to be a burden on themselves

Arnon

We were not offended by your use of the word "threesome".
In response to your question, we were thinking of inviting a small academic crowd and a small literary crowd. (My apartment is not that large.)

Neria

Thanks for your answer, I read it a while ago.

Neria

You sure ask a lot of questions. My conclusion is you have a lot of love to give.

Oscar W

You are in good company. George Steiner once praised the threesome in Jules et Jim as an example of pure and selfless love.
I’m glad you and Laura are taking my proposal seriously.
Be assured that I will always consider your proposals seriously.

David M

i'm not trying to have any control over you, i was simply curious. i'm being accused for having rigid and fixed ideas about everything in life, so i try to open up and check them against others' worls views.

Arnon

You may pathetically attempt to insult me, but why are you naming the people i'm corresponding with, in your site, air? That's not fair.

Anyway, i interpret your aggressiveness towards me as an indirect wish for my dissapearance.

@Margot Morgan
I do not understand why all male readers should despise this book ‘Eat Love Pray’ by Elizabeth Gilbert. The same thing was once told to me about "Les mots pour le dire" by Marie Cardinal. I fact, I liked the book then. Maybe you can enlighten me now?

Neria

Don't get me wrong, I accept your love.
At my work the people are so mediocre, and you are not mediocre.

Hey Jan

The title of the book is actually 'Eat Pray Love'.
It's about a woman in her thirties who goes through this terrible divorce and then travels to Italy, to indulge in pleasure, to India to find inner harmony, and to Indonesia to find a balance between the two. Now, if you read a blurb like that, no man would ever buy the book.

@Margot
It makes me think of the works of Peter ten Hoopen ‘De Trancekaravaan (1996) King Acid (1999) Heilige voor halve dagen (2002) but then from a woman’s viewpoint.
It does not sound too dreadful to me. Thank you for the information.

@Margot
I thought for a second or two that the book you mentioned was in favour of a kind of SCUM manifesto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto
I am glad it is not.

David M

i still insist that my interest had nothing to do with control (at least not consciously). i accept that love is fulfilling needs (for yourself or for those you love).
If being slightly an autist, misinterpreting people's signs, and causing pain unintetionally is not being mediocre then you're right ;))

Thanks for the link. I'm not in favor of a world without men. As for Solanas, I think it's clear that her behaviour was triggered by the abuse she suffered from her father, projecting her anger at the entire gender instead of just one man.

This quote should be on every girls refrigirator:
"Sex is not part of a relationship: on the contrary, it is a solitary experience, non-creative, a gross waste of time. The female can easily -- far more easily than she may think -- condition away her sex drive, leaving her completely cool and cerebral and free to pursue truly worthy relationships and activities; "

@Margot
If you allow me, I will put it on my refrigerator too, for a start.
Keep on smiling. Thanks.

Margot

Good Lord! Margot! No! Sex is fantastic! Why do you say such things?!

Neria

Sex can be fantastic, depending on who your lover is.
In general I prefer to focus on the mind, not on the body.
I would rather have a peaceful mind that an excited body, but perhaps that is the masochist in me.

Dear Margot,

i don't separate between the body and the mind. When it does happen i know things are not in order. When the body gets what it needs, the mind automatically gets more peacefull and even absorbes and process information better. But i am a very simple person. i content myself with very little intellectual and spiritual activity.

Neria

Sometimes it’s hard to remember what you wrote a few hours earlier.
You wrote --I’ll quote: “i don't lecture to the air, i'm not that pathetic.”
My answer was and still is: “A self-appointed lecturer should not be surprised that the air is her most loyal audience.”
I’m not sure to what you exactly object.

Air calling Neria

I feel the mind works better if the body is neglected.

Arnon

Am i missing a point here? Do you name yourself and others 'air'?

What's your problem Arnon? Actually you bring a smile to my face because you keep communicating with me while i convrse with others. Don't try to protect me from loosing audience. Don't try to protect me period. If anything, sit with yourself and take care of your own fears.

I'm not offended.
Anyway, you guys have fun.
I'm off to my dance class.

Neria!

I think he means most women who visit this site are complete airheiads and have no sexlife. Or decent jobs. The only reason why he tolerates you is because you entertain him. And because you bought his book.

Noa

Thank you, i don't think you're air (but i know you know that).

It's a very large subject. Neglection of the body to what extent? At what stage of the life? For how long, and for what purpose?

Noa

i slowly learn he's a misogynist. It's funny, cause the rest of the men here are absolutely ok. i forgive him cause he knows how to write (all this for 70 NIS, this is low).

I have to go now. I think Arnon is ready to answer these questions for you.

Neria

My astrologer said he should masturbate less.
He does love women, just not as much as himself.

Margot & Neria

The body should never be neglected. Please take a shower every day and cut your nails weekly.
People without a sex life are in the majority. Don’t turn this omission into heroism unless you long to be a nun.
Neria, the obnoxiousness of the self-appointed lecturer is sometimes tiresome, whether the self-appointed lecturer is female or male is not important.

Arnon

Nudnik!

Neria

A nudnik is better than a misogynist.

Arnon

i'm a very serious person, therefor i took you very seriously. That was the longest initiation period i've ever been through, plus, 99% of the time i wasn't even aware of what was going on. Now i finally laugh :)) !

Neria

You should work more and spend less time on this site.
Try to bake some latkes for God's sake.

Arnon

This is what i did the last two days. We had here 18 people for hadlakat nerot.
Now i'm really slow cause i'm trying to digest (not my best trait).

Sooner or later this party (these prolonged chit-chat days) will be over. i will have no time for it once i'll go back to work. Don't worry, i'm not a genius, the world can get along perfectly well without me working.

i have to go now: reconciliation call...

Margot

i'm so sorry, i sent two replies to you writing 'Noa' in subject. My best friend is is named Noa, i'm so used to speak with her i mixed you both, unintentionally.
Probably it's too late.
Old age...