What I wonder about, Is it you that asks to do these things, or are you asked?

War sounds more organised than normal life, where you never know which operations will be lethal or non-lethal.

I see they have Subway, Burger King and Pizza Hut franchises in Camp Taji. Unfortunately, they don't make it a safe place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taji

Lethal or non lethal, it all depends on who is running the show.
What strikes me, is that people and institutions seem to function normally under these conditions. (Not a very good example, but I refer hereby to this pictures http://tinyurl.com/35oqng ). Why were we shocked? We should not be, it is normal behavior everywhere, every time. It was not racism, it was normality that kept the trains rolling.

Jan Thys

For more information about this album of photographs, see Alec Wilkinson's article "Picturing Auschwitz" in the March 17th issue of the New Yorker. An abstract of the article is available online:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/03/17/080317fa_fact_wilkinson

@Oscar
Thanks again.

Jan Thys

If you are unable to find the New Yorker article online or at your local library, I will send Johannes a printed copy.

@Oscar
The full article? Would be great. But you can always send a scan to mail box (thysmeister@gmail.com)

Dear Arnon,

“human” conversations as opposed to what? Talking to trees, stones or having inhumane conversations?

Dens

Nobody asked me to do this. I wanted it.

Jeanette

“Human” as opposed to “inhuman”: lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy; cruel and barbaric.
The conversations I’m having here are not cruel or barbaric at all. The adjective “human” can refer to a certain kindness and sensitivity.

arnon

sure, i agree, "human" is mostly used to imply positive qualities, such as compassion and merci, but isn't that a popular fallacy?
are not cruelty, agression and hypocricy (etc.) equally human?

while consulting my "concise oxford" just now (i'm somewhat "dyslexic") (i don't think woordblind excisted in 1964, when my dictionary was printed), i stumbled upon a [sic] root of this comment, people have obviously had this conversation before and with the following result: in english "human" means: "of, belonging to, man, as "human nature"". and then there is "humane", meaning "benevolent, compassionate".

hope you have a good trip (an understatement a day keeps the doctor away)

Arnon

Are you free to write what you like about your experience, or did you have to sign all manner of secrecy agreements to become "embedded"? I hope you don't have to submit your work to a military censor or something. There has been a lot of criticism of "embedded" journalism. For one thing you are implicitly choosing one side . Will you get the chance to talk to ordinary Iraqis?

Jan T

It is important to realize that whatever is considered "normal" is not our own perception or judgment but, rather, the belief of a dominant discourse. I don't think Arnon would go to Iraq if things were normal there.

I don't know *why* exactly Arnon said he lost his sense of place and time, but I think his experience is preferable over those who took photographs of their summer holidays right outside the camp in which they murdered thousands each day, pretending it wasn't happening. To them, what they did was "normal". From another perspective, one might say they lost their sense of place and time. One might even say they were in shock.

Normality is only a pretext to keep things going the way the powers that be want things to go, cf. the mantra, "We are making progress in Iraq".

Incidentally, the same rant is valid for the word, "human". A supposedly *universal* declaration of human rights, which is in fact a western concoction, used to put pressure on non-western countries, to privilige the western world, and to legitimize its wars.

@RH CdG
Like centuries ago, we let the world share in the love of Christ.
Now the world wants us to share back in their kindness. It is always about love and sharing.
And to stay decent. Not to become a kind of colonel Kurtz.

Jan T

I am not sure if I follow. What I remember from colonel Kurtz is that he, a soldier, pushes a certain doctrine to its extreme consequence, and is consequently taken out because said doctrine ultimately undermines the social system that it used to protect its interests. Apparently, being a soldier and being an American are two different things. (I have not read Heart of Darkness, I am referring to Apocolypse Now).
Words like "love" and "sharing" are as much abused as "normal", "human", "democracy", "freedom", or "christian". These are among the most conspicuous ones, but virtually our entire lexicon is a collection of suspect words. "Decency"? What is that? A sign of embarrassment?

Correction and addition

"...the social system that made use of it..."
"Apocalypse Now"

I am still contemplating losing a sense of place and time in extreme situations. Compare the SS people on their summer holidays to colonel Kurtz, who says that "horror has a face". He stared *right* into it. He did not lose his sense of time and place. He lived through it. He was not normal. How could he be?

@RH CdG
For me the key remains: society wants soldiers to perform terrible acts and yet return unharmed, unaffected, let us say decent. Colonel Kurtz lost his decency, in the eyes of civilisation and yet he was somehow their best exponent, soldier (in the movie), supplier (in the book).
For me the real brain (heart) of darkness is an ordinary office (in the book) or an army headquarter or presidency (in the movie).

Jan T

Ah, now I see what you mean! Yes, the bright, decent face of Eichmann in Mulisch' book (De zaak 40/61) and the heart-of-darkness face that it immediately follows. Right? Much of today's society is about that decency. We are all becoming healthy and successful people who do not smoke or swear. Cameras are posted on every street corner to keep an eye on us. Both security and collection agencies are flourishing. The decency they promote is a fascist ideal.
Thanks for elaborating, Jan.

@RH CdG
Yes why not. And about ‘contemplating losing a sense of place and time in extreme situations’. This can be considered as the effects of a mild state of shock, indeed. If worse, it evolves into dissociation, the last stage is stupor.(But I am not psychiatrist).

Carlos

There is no censorship at all. Other than the Dutch army the US army is not reading my pieces before I send them to the newspaper in the Netherlands. I do know that some of the officers have checked out this website. But that's maybe just human interest.
Which does not imply that the Dutch army was censoring my pieces. Though they are more concerned with the names of the enlisted men (no last names are allowed) and they are also slightly obsessed with operational details.
The US army seems to be more relaxed, at least outside the Green Zone.
The US army asked me not to mention the name of the base nor the country where I was shortly before being moved to Iraq. That's all when it comes to censorship.
I add that I didn't get a thing called "security clearance" -- this is something I will ask for next time I'll be travelling with the US army.

@Arnon, in light of the censorship-discussion, I was wondering whether you find yourself struggling with the issue of censoring yourself?
We all know you never held back on any issues (or people you met) in the past, but I'm sensing a transition these past few months, am I sensing right? I'm sure it must be difficult to walk the line between fact and fiction. You choose to be both (a factional and fictional writer) and this interests me. It's a pity I won't be eating cheese fondue, as this is exactly what I'd be asking you: how you view this and whether you feel you have certain moral obligations/motivations.
Anyway, good luck over there. It all seems pretty overwhelming.

Almost no censorship: Arnon, are you sure you are with the U.S. Army - the same where Jessica Lynch served.......and that hired Hollywood cameramen for better propaganda-movies. to ensure this war is better accepted at home?
You must be joking.

Jeanette P.

Censorship and propaganda are not the same thing.

@Jeanette - well , if that's the case then the propaganda certainly didn't work did it? I mean the common voice and therefore the 'normal' thing to say (and this is where I disagree with Rutger entirely regarding his definition of 'normal' in relation to this war) is how much of a mistake the war was. See also the extremely popular Oscar nominated (remember, the Oscars are American too) documentary film 'No End in Sight'. And don't even get me started on the Abu Ghraib photo's. Or perhaps these should have been censored? Don't get me wrong here by the way, I am not defending this war. I do know that propaganda works equally as strongly both ways. Watch Al Jazeerah and you'll see an interesting display of male testosterone bombings and anti-western propaganda on the other side. Quid pro quo.

Noa

Please do not forget to mention, every now and then, that you disagree with what I say. Preferably in Latin. That way I know I'm still on track.
Also, did you like the black garters I sent you? I'm sure they go well with your sweet innocent face.

Jeanette

The US army is more than Mrs. or Mss. Lynch.
Certain ignorance is invincible.
After all there are people who are convinced that 9/11 is conducted by the CIA, the Mossad and other dirty Jews.
And when you point out that this might be a conspiracy theory and not a very pleasant one for that matter they answer: "You must be joking."

@Rutger - I suppose these kind of reactions go by your definition of 'normal' too, in light of discussions regarding the topic at hand. Or perhaps it's not 'normal' for people to disagree with you and provide arguments as to why they disagree with you. If you find people are in agreement with you all the time, then perhaps you should consider it's because
a. they are afraid of you. In which case I say: congratulations, start a political party or so.
b. they are being politically correct aka condescending.
In any event, at least I take you seriously enough to enter into debate with you. Are you very sure you're turning the right people into your personal enemies?

Noa

I thrive on animosity. It just so happens you are at hand, and I really need a fix.

@ Noa
The pictures of Desert Storm (you know the greenish precision-bombing pc-game pictures) were too boring for the folks at home. The Americans decided to change that in this war. You know the Lynch-story I presume. Although it soon came out saving this "private Ryan" was a hoax, people still honour her today.. I agree with you that the propaganda is failing, but maybe that vision is merely from a n European perspective. I wonder why the American people don't organize a huge demonstration against the war like the Vietnam-demonstration...is some propaganda working....?

@Arnon

Sure the U.S. Army is more than this Lynch-person. Some of my friends served in this Army, so sometimes I listen to the 'inside-stories' of others.
The point I was trying to make is, that I find it very difficult to believe that if an army spends lots of propaganda-money, they won't censor a journalist like you.

About 9/11: I frankly don't care about theories of conspiracy. Every year about 40.000 Americans get killed in car-accidents. Although the higher deathtoll, that keeps repeating itself every year, it doesn't have the same impact (on politics) like 9/11. The number of people killed in 9/11 is relatively small, compared to this problem - and is certainly outnumbered by the cassualties of war at this moment. Take care.

@Jeanette, you are misinformed, The biggest and most passionate anti- (Iraq)war demonstration took place in the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/15/sprj.irq.protests.main/
Don't forget also that approx 49% US citizens voted against Bush. So it's safe to say that one out of two Americans hate him and his policies as much as you do.

This quote is particularly interesting - "In New York on Saturday, a giant puppet depicting President Bush holding buckets of blood and oil towered over the cheering crowd that was pressed against police barricades near U.N. headquarters."
As you will read, 375,000 people (only in NY) took place in that demostration.

Jeanette

I can only repeat that I haven't encountered any censorship yet.
Also it is good to keep in mind that most if not all sectarian killing is done by the Iraqis -- not the US troops.

@Noa
Thank you for the link, but that was in 2003, 5 years ago....
We'll see what will happen after the upcoming elections.

@Noa
Thank you for the link, but that was in 2003, 5 years ago....
We'll see what will happen after the upcoming elections.

Jeanette

Most people are tired of Iraq and the war. Certainly outside the US, except probably for Iraq, and but also within the US.
It still puzzles me how you can think that the US army must be censoring embedded journalists. I'm afraid that this means that you have not read much of the excellent war reporting done by both embedded and non-embedded journalists.
My point about 9/11 was just that behind your fixed idea about the US army lurks a conspiracy theory.
You might not know that even US soldiers have a movement against this war:
http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier
I just opened the website on Ministry of Defense Computer FYI.
Sometimes it realy helps to inform yourself when you are in need of an opinion.

You wrote: "Most people are tired of Iraq and the war. Certainly outside the US, except probably for Iraq, and but also within the US."
Everytime I drive in the US and come upon cars with carstickers with texts like: "Our son died for your freedom" I feel wide awake and certainly not tired of the war. In fact I want to get out and talk to those people. I talked a lot to former armymen, some of which still support the Army, some don't. I just listen and talk, without being judgemental, I'm just interested in their experiences and how they come to grips with it by making it into a story and I'm interested in the changes the experiences bring about in their daily lives with their families.
Being an European person sometimes opens doors.

Maybe it surprises you, but I read enough about embedded and non-embedded journalists to form my own opinion (f.i. Reporters without borders), so be carefull before telling one of your visitors that he or she is to ignorant to participate in a discussion. You presented it in a gentle way, that may be, but being a lawyer I was teached that if you have a bad message, you never put on a boxing-glove before you hit the client.....
be carefull

Nastasza

Re: my ability to look into people's motives.
It really is not very difficult. Let's take Jeanette P.'s post for example, and read its subtext:
-I go to the US often;
-I am not judgmental;
-I am not an American, but a civilized European;
-I am well read;
-I form my own opinion;
-I am eligible to be taken seriously;
-I am also a lawyer;
-I don't care if you live or die, but let the record show that I urged you to be careful.
-Please be nice to me.

@RH
another way to read it:
- I'm not American, but European, which has got nothing to do with being civillized or not;
- I do care about people's lives, that's why I chose my profession. "Take care" isn't a wish with a negative connotation
- everybody has the right to be treated seriously, unless that person makes clear that's he/she doesn't want to be treated that way
- don't wrap criticism in soft tissue: "be nice to me when you criticize me" is a laugh and doesn't bring forth any discussion that may alter peoples views.

Would you care to share any of your "motives"?

Jenaette

The idea is not to share one's motives but to discover those of others. We are all readers, correct? Then why don't you act like one.

Jeanette

Don't jump to conclusions based on bumper stickers, please.
I'm not sure what exactly your point is. You started out by teling me that I was lying while informing the readers of this blog that the US army is not censoring my articles.
II was kind enough to once again inform you that you are mistaken.
Now it turns out that all you wanted to say is you are a lawyer from Europe driving around in the US and reading other people's bumper sticker.
Well all I can say , Jeanette, is I wish you well. Keep on reading bumper stickers.

Pick me! Pick me!

I was a lawyer too, me too, me toooooo (said the Donkey in Shrek). Still, everyone loves the donkey, and therefore hopefully me aswell as Jeanette. I think she's likeable, why? Because she means well, and she's honest. Reminds me a bit of Ilanit too. So why not give her some slack Arnon (you too Rutger, Arnon's right hand in the making). All she did was question the censorship issue (I'm sure everyone was thinking the same, thanks to her we now know you're not being censored). In the very least Arnon, surely you must appreciate the fact that someone says something different than marvel about the clothes you are wearing? You were the only one wearing shoes, by the way, i couldn't help but notice. I'm just like the rest.

Noa

You seemed to have missed 85% of the conversation with Jeanette.
But I’m relieved to know that everybody thinks the same as Jeanette and thanks to Jeanette we know I’m not being censored by the US army.
(Maybe you should start reading before commenting or work on you novel for that matter. Or play with your kid. Or get out and talk to people. Or read a book.)
I hope you don’t mind that I will clear the issue of the shoes later. I give you a hint: the fact that I’m the only one wearing shoes is because the lieutenant said, “if you take your shoes off you will kill everybody in your surroundings.”
Now I ask you weren’t we all mistaken about censorship?
There we have a clear attempt to censor me. Maybe not my writing but my shoes were clearly being censored.
I have a very difficult question for you: do you think the lieutenant took off his shoes? Don’t answer before June 1st. Take your time.

Arnon

I'm glad you're not subject to restrictions. In my experience ordinary US military personnel are indeed friendly and not very politicized. Most joined the military as a job. I'm sure most never dreamed they would end up in the current situation.

The US Department of Defense does do propaganda (as do all ministries of war). The Jessica Lynch affair was quite bizarre . Especially since the true story was really quite positive for Americans: the doctors and nurses who held nothing against the US and protected her and even tried to get her to the American lines. Instead the DoD chose to present a completely fictionalized account portraying her protectors and indeed all Iraqis as savages (in true colonial fashion). As an afterthought, they later even claimed she was anally raped. So perhaps it is understandable why someone should be mistrustful.

Napoleon said "history is a set of lies agreed upon". It seems some authorities believe they can do the agreeing themselves. I am glad they can't agree it with you.

@Noa
Thanks for your reaction, it really sums it up. Maybe it takes a lawyer to understand another?
@Arnon
Seen any bumperstickers in Iraq?

Jeanette

Please don't hide behind your "profession." For all I know you could be a unemployed carpenter. Given your line of reasoning, your tone and your fetish for bumper stickers you are probably a carpenter.
I hope you are not unemployed but this would explain some of your resentment.

Arnon,
thank you for inventing an avatar for me: a resentfull unemployed carpenter with a fetish too. I really lack the imagination of reinventing myself fbefore entering a blog. At least you chose a person that really learned a skill and does something usefull with his hands in stead of re-aranging words.
About hiding: did you have the opportunity to read what Hermans wrote about "de dekmantel der fantasie" and placing a shield in front of the inner self?

@Arnon, you said (and this seems so un-Arnonian)- "(Maybe you should start reading before commenting or work on you novel for that matter. Or play with your kid. Or get out and talk to people. Or read a book.)" I suppose this is your way of giving me a warning shot. A sad day for me indeed. If I remember well, along with Jan and Dens, we were your very first commentators here (at that time I was commenting under the name of Tess), and therefore probably your most trustworthy blogpees. Needless to say therefore: my heart is broken :(
Before I leave this blog, I can't resist recommending to every (aspiring) writer out there to read Stephen King's 'On Writing'.
And to Arnon - summing up my presence here, I'm still awaiting your opinion on George Orwell's 'Down and out in Paris and London', and 'The Fountainhead'. If ever you read those (who knows, perhaps you may even read Gezandstraald some time) and want to share some thoughts, you know where to find me.
In the meantime, be careful. Vai com deus, as they say here (@Rutger: no, that does not make me a latinist ;) I'm sure you're relieved I won't be haunting you any longer, remember to stay true to yourself sometimes, ie: don't forget how your sole goal in life was to criticize our host when you first came to this site.) Times change, I suppose, as do the group dynamics.

Oh and PS

@Arnon, you know me - there's always an after thought.
On this whole shoe-business, what on earth do you take me for? If you in turn had read my comment carefully you will have noticed I was being ironic and it was in fact ME who addressed the issue that everyone here was becoming so annoyingly superficial in their comments. My thoughts when seeing you with your shoes on were: "good, he's been trained and instructed to get up and run if necessary." And not whatever you thought my thoughts were.
Anyway, that's it. Nobody will notice these comments or care really but whatever and so anyway....

Noa

I don't take it lightly when somebody is accusing me of lying, as Jeanette did, especially not on a sensitive matter as censorship and I didn't take it lightly when you came to her defense in, as far as I'm concerned, a nasty way.
That's why I jumped to the conclusion that you thought that I was being insensitive for not taking off my shoes.
Please, keep commenting.
I

Jeanette

What did Hermans say exactly?

Arnon,
the exact lines I read (in an article by W.G. Glaudemans):

De romancier 'die er rond voor uitkomt dat hij fantaseert, [kan] onder de dekmantelder fantasie inderdaad zijn diepste gevoelens bloot [...]leggen'
(JD61/685). Want: 'wie bewust liegt is zich ervan bewust dat hij voor zijn binnenste een schild plaatst waarachter hij alles kan doen en laten wat hij wil' (JD61/687). Achter het kamerscherm van de fictie zal de auteur volgens Hermans
eerder geneigd zijn zich bloot te geven dan wanneer hij ervoor staat.

Hiding can reveal things....

Jeanette

The connection with the US army and censorship is lost on me, but at least you are less aggressive.

A.
I guess you too. Did you have you fingers rubbed before posting your latest mail or after?
When I was a student I used to visit a starting popband for a winterseason, only to see the bassplayer's fingers dancing on his guitar...unfortunately he didn't know what to do with them when the songs were finished..
What kind of music do you listen to while in Iraq?

Jeanette

I got you the whole censorship thing was a sexual innuendo in disguise, you wanted to know if I know what to do with my fingers.
FYI last comment was written long before I got fingerprinted.

Arnon,

in connection to your entry today about eating Asian food: you could try to think of the censorship thing as a personal koan. Koans aren't figured out in one weeks time, but you try which is admirable and is exactly the purpose of a koan. One doesn't stop trying to think about the solution untill one gets a new koan.
About fingers: Ever since I read an article by Merleau-Ponty in which he uses an arm to explain his point, I wonder why he stopped there.
I have no idea how your hands/fingers look like, let alone what you do with them when you're not pushing some buttons . In fact they never crossed my mind, but now you've put them in there....how to deal with that?

Jeanette

I don’t see the connection between a koan and censorship, but maybe all you were trying to say is that you are the Zen Master and I’m the pupil. You are entitled to your fantasies.
As to my hands, let me ask you: when was the last time you slept with somebody?
Don’t censor yourself. Self-censorship is worse than any army censor can be.

Jeanette

I don’t see the connection between a koan and censorship, but maybe all you were trying to say is that you are the Zen Master and I’m the pupil. You are entitled to your fantasies.
As to my hands, let me ask you: when was the last time you slept with somebody?
Don’t censor yourself. Self-censorship is worse than any army censor can be.

Arnon,
about the (or should I say my) connection: the thought of a koan came up because the censorshipcomment was not logical (and so untrue) to you. A koan is an illogical question which can be answered, but not in a logical way.
Indeed I am a Master, but in Laws. Pupils come and go, learning is a reciprocal thing, don't you think?
You urged me not to censor myself and asked me a personal question. That reminded me of Foucault . People think that speaking openly about sexuality is a freedom we gained after Victorian times. But in fact it contributes to norms which actually can surpress sexual freedom and it altered the nature of sexuality in our society. For this moment I choose to censor myself relating this subject. Censorship isn't always a negative thing, is it?

Jeanette

Don’t confuse impolite and aggressive interrogation based on unfounded presumptions with seemingly illogical questions.
My question had no relationship with freedom what so ever, but with your remarks about fingers and your adoration for this particular guitarist and his fingers. You remember?
If I can give you some free advice: get laid. It helps. And it doesn’t have to be with somebody with the same social standing as you have. Please, consider this advice a koan.

No, getting laid won't do - only the orgasm will help, otherwise the frustration increases. Which brings me back to Jeanette's focus on your fingerwork: very important indeed.

Arnon,
if your advice is a koan, there's no direct action indicated, since koans aren't solved quickly. Is that what you mean by your remark?

Noa,
there a point, except for the frustration part I guess.

Jeanette

A Zen Master offers riddles but sometimes he uses his stick.
Do you prefer riddles or the stick?

Arnon
an interesting question indeed, that can be answered in a 1.000 ways.
f.i.:
- that depends on the situation .
- riddles and sticks are parts of the same system.The question posing in front of your question is: do you want to be part of that system?
- Zen is not about a pupil's preferences.
- I prefer to go biking on Rarotonga.
- etc.

Yesterday I heard about an increase in the suicides in the US army (13% in one year), especially in Iraq. It is a topic that is discussed during your stay?

Jeanette

The Zen Master asks the pupil (sometimes) questions. If that means that he is interested in the pupil’s preferences is another matter.
Yes, the subject of suicide came up during my stay with the US army.

Arnon,
with you on your way home, it's time to break up this camp.
I thank you for your time and thoughts and think of the past days when I'll run into my next bumpersticker in the US...