Yesterday I received a phonecall that I had to hand in my review (as a little trailer) of Modern Times (DVD) a long time ago, though I did so. I especially liked the scenes at the mall.

The mentioned article is not so bizarre as it seems. Jew were hated (by A. Hitler and the Nazis) because they were considered weak cowards (like vermin, rats, the plague, etcetera ) who yet want to rule the world (sic). At the end of the war Hitler honored the Russians as the real winners of the war, the new masters fit to rule the world. Nowadays some people see the Jews as the strongest people, the eagles of humanity. The rest of the world is seen as merely crawling chickens ready for the slaughter, for fun or profit. Nazi ideology is close to social Darwinism (quite popular again nowadays in neo conservative circles). Maybe to quote Chaplin, Nazism is a logical extension of a certain free market system, were the strong dominate ruthlessly.
(It was in the newspaper ‘De Morgen’ too, partially).

@ Arnon

That sounds a bit like the official guide ine of Vlaams Belang. They favour Israël too nowadays.

Can I ask a question?
(Sure)
Thanks
(Go ahead)
Alright, I was wondering what happened to the cheese fondue? I was unavailable at the time, but so was everybody else? I don't remember any cancelling ever being discussed here, but perhaps I was too focused on Iraq, potlatch, or black lingerie.
Why don't you set up something more in the vicinity of where the majority of your visitors live, i.e., in Holland? I don't know if visiting Grunbergs site implies one travels like Grunberg.

Rutger

Where have you been? Outside, reading poetry?

Originally the Nazis were Zionists. The final solution evolved in later years because it was cheaper and the war was costly. You can see that in Nazi board games for children where the main goal is to transfer the Jews to Israel rather than annihilating them.

Did the Nazis want to kill all Jews, or only the Jews who came to live among them? They were going for world domination if i'm not mistaken and cared very much for the principle 'stay where you are and do as you're told' - 'if we say jump, you ask how high'.
Utopia for them was a world where everyone sticks to the borders, a world divided in little Mondriaan-boxes, never thinking outside the box.

Their meddling in the conflict of the middle east is at least a bit inappropriate. It's like beating the wife and then apologizing by saying she looks good in the kitchen. Furthermore, I don't think the same pro-Israelism is adopted by their militants - neo-nazi skinheads, foreigner-hating housefathers...

Nazis that are pro-Israel. I guess one should never think one has seen everything.

Margot

Yes, while trying real hard to abstain, I fell again.

Ivo Victoria

What a beautiful you name you have!
Re: Nazis and Jews, it is important to realize that it was never about Jews or any group that carries on any specific features. The essence of Nazi ideology is the distinction between Übermensche und Untermensche. In our current-day world, Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims alike belong to the latter, while Jews clearly form the dominant party. The lesson here is not that Nazis might become partners to Jews, but, rather, that Jews may take on an ideology that inspired their near extinction.

O Mensch, gib Acht!

I guess it's Menschen...

@ Rutger

The essence of nazi ideology, extreme right thinking is that they start from inequality. If you want to understand their philosophy, than you have to be aware how deeply influenced they are by Darwinism, that's how they interpret life. Their only interest in the group is how you can cooperate as a group, the energy each group provides, in consequence the pressure you can put and how strong you come out of it. Solidarity is a key word, wich is very different from socialism. Solidarity within the group to prevail as the strongest, respect for your strongest opponent , i.c. Israël, that 's how they stand in theworld.

Mr. Arnon

I believe someone should take a decent photo of you. You need it.

Dens

FYI The man on the picture is Charles Chaplin. It's not me.
The woman is Sophia Loren.

Rutger

Please ask Johannes about the cheese fondue. You know where to find him.
Your remark that "Jews may take on ideology that inspired their near extinction" is close to an anti-Semitic remark. It's interesting to see how an article about Neo-Nazi's supporting Israel ends up in a discussion about Jews being (or becoming) Nazi's.

Arnon

It either is, or it is not an antisemitic remark; "close to" should not, and will not impress me, and I will certainly not be held hostage by any ideological claim from whatever party. Perhaps, it is better when you and I refrain from discussing this matter, at least as long as you are so trigger happy to wave your antisemism trump card like you have a whole deck of it.
When will Jews like you learn to stand on their own two feet, and not rely on History and the Law to claim their place under the sun?

I'll let my secretary call your secretary and tell him that he can take my name off his list.

Arnon

What can one make of neo-Nazis who back Isreal? Perhaps this isn't so surprising. Klaus Barbie was happy to sell Belgian and Swiss arms to Israel and sell Israeli arms to South American countries. Otto Skorzeny , one of the leaders of ODESSA and who was protected by Franco's Spain , apparently cooperated with the Mossad. What is there to say? Perhaps only that (neo-)Nazis are complete and utter shits. I very much doubt if any Nazi (neo or otherwise) would shed a tear passing the Hollandse Schouwburg in East Amsterdam like I do every time I drive past it, or travel past it in tram 9.

Rutger

If this helps you: to claim that Jews have become Nazi’s or might become Nazi’s is unwise and has the aftertaste of anti-Semitism.
So does by the way the claim that the Nazi’s did not target the Jews, or that Nazi ideology was not about “Jews.” Not to speak of the historical grandiosity of this statement.
I’m not sure what you mean with your remark that Jews like me have to stand on their own feet.
I guess you felt offended by my last comment.
It’s unwise to shout “anti-Semitism” on every occasion, absolutely, but to say that you cannot use this word anymore because it has been used too lightly is equally unwise and dangerous.
You seem to say that a Jew like me cannot point out any anti-Semitism period and exactly this proves my point.
Maybe you should go to rehab.
You don’t need the dirt of anti-Semitism. You are without this dirt a fine and tender Übermensch.

Arnon

I would feel offended if I would care as much about how people feel about me as you seem to care about how people feel about you and your ancestor's history. The way things stand, I can only say that I refute your taking exclusive ownership of a suffering that concerns any human who identifies with his own history, which includes the history of mankind, obviously. In that respect, I am as much a Nazi as I am a Jew. However, that doesn't mean I need you or anyone else to explain to me the extent of either.

If you are interested to learn about my position re: current-day fascism and antisemitism, you are welcome to read my blog entry on the matter (in Dutch) from a while ago at http://blogger.xs4all.nl/cornets5/archive/2007/09/13/294215.aspx

"It’s unwise to shout “anti-Semitism” on every occasion, absolutely, but to say that you cannot use this word anymore because it has been used too lightly is equally unwise and dangerous."

Are you saying anything at all here? I thought you were responding to something I had said. Statements like this one, and the one about going into rehab are as gratuitous as anything said to nobody in particular. They must be directed to yourself then.

I did not say that a Jew like you would be unable to point out any antisemitism, nor did I say that the Nazis did not target Jews. I was saying that the notion of antisemitism should not be deployed to put an end to history or to shut people up, but to set it free from its place in history, so that the same crimes are not committed again under the pretext that "this one is another deal". Unless, of course, you wish to cherish the notion of an exclusive crime in disregard of the millions of victims who die in order to find their exclusive place in history.

I am pretty sure I am not telling you anything new. Therefore, to make me write these lines is taking credit. But you're not likely to wear me out.

Rutger

It’s obnoxious to say that I (or anybody else) is claiming ownership of suffering while pointing out that there is an hint of anti-Semitism in the statement that Jews are or might become like Nazi’s.
And even if you do think that there was something unique bout the Nazi’s genocide this does not automatically imply that the speaker claims an exclusive place in history, for himself or for the Jews,
But then again that the Jews claim an unique place in history for themselves is a very lold accussation.
What exactly do you mean with an exclusive place in history? Do you strive for such a place? You deserve it and I wish you well.

You make it seem like you write masterpieces every time you comment on this site, RH, but they hardly ever are. I find that wearing me out. But the question wasn't addressed to me.

I have to agree, Dens, and I admire the subtle way you told him so.

Arnon

Let's just skip it. I appreciate your concern; it just doesn't concern me. Or that is my claim. Take it easy.

Dens, Sander

I am glad to hear that your stamina is such that I am wearing you out. Take a vitamine pill, why don't you.

Rutger

You seem to be addicted to farting in public.

@Mieke

So there you have it: 'only when he doth criticize our host, do we dare criticize him'. Need I say more?

Noa

You obviously have a point. I am not surprised at all, I am used to be confronted with a herd mentality. You see, these people have no distinguishing feature, nothing that makes them stand out from the rest of the crowd. They just wish they were Arnon. But they're not. They only read the novels he writes. To them, these novels are primarily a means to entertain, to pass their useless time, rather than a potential means to change the world, if only the world of literature.

They are here because Arnon is here. He is their hero. Whenever there is a hero, there must also be an antagonist. That is my job. You see, the one thing they cannot stand is that I am not like them. But I cannot be like them, because their jokes are lame, their opinions are petty, their lust for life is virtually non existent, nothing they say is ever worth remembering. They read novels; that's as far as they have come, and now they here. And so, they need an antagonist to exclude and expel from their midst in order for them to feel united and to belong.
What they fail to see, however, is that they themselves are excluded from the relation between the hero and the antagonist, who form a unity of sorts. Think of Jesus and Judas, who made a deal in a way--only if you betray me, can the scriptures be fulfilled. There are many other examples one can think of.

It doesn't go that far between our host and me. But at least I respect him, which is more than I can say for most of the people here, with their ready-made opinions on poetry and anything else that makes life special and worth living. They deserve nothing but contempt.

Ruthgar

So what do you suggest, transferring or extinguishing them? Or that contempt is enough for the time being.

Rutger

I hate to break this to you, but you're not the center of the universe. Perhaps if you weren't so small-minded you'd have realized this.

Carlos Dee

I am not? Then why are you orbiting around me?

Ruger

See, just as I thought: a completely deluded sense of self-importance!
Perhaps someone should take you by the hand and lead you to the Valeriuskliniek...

Carlos Dee

Yes, Arnon made that joke already.
If you hadn't already been here, I'd say that my response from last night produced you. You fit the picture to a tee--no distinguishing feature, lame jokes, petty opinions, copycat behavior, resentment, and some fond memories of Amsterdam (gee, I wonder why). Have you no shame?

Rutger

It is interesting that you warn Jews not to adopt Nazism (not without good reasons) yet in the same breath you ignore sharing the same ideaology. I suspect that when you look for a meaning to life and you find it in poetry you place yourself in the same group you so detest, classes within this group are absolutely meaningless. I wish you were an antagonist.

Rutger

You obviously seek to offend me, but you do not. This is your game: you offend because you want the attention. It is sad that this is apparently the only way you know how to get it. I find the heights of your egotism quite astounding. I hope you find love and inner happiness someday Rutger. I truly do. For our sake more than yours.

Rutger

Moreover, if you put aside the use of grouping terms, it is almost embarrassing to witness your projection on Mr. Grunberg. Did you miss the same sense of special intimacy with your father? Even in your choice of profession you don't seem to be free of this complex. I think one must first be free before making any attempt to be an antagonist.
I must confess I do enjoy reading some of your comments, but at times they do leave me with the aftertaste of lost life, as if you are not wholly at one with what you are doing but rather busy in a constant process of interpreting the things you do. As if someone forgot to tell you that the discussion over literature was meant to help us passing time and cannot justify unjustifiable life, and I write it with true compassion in my heart. At times you sound very much like an alcolholic in AA who cannot stand the sight of his neighbors.

@ Noa

I don't feel addressed by Rutger's criticism. Maybe I am to much absorbed in my own orbit. My latest statue is close to it's final form and that's taking most of my energy. I can't wait to see the result, propably by the end of this week. I do hope the form is as strong as I wanted it to be.

As in literature , I belief, it's the form in sculpting that can inspire people.

Neria

I don't know what exactly causes your embarrassment; I know it is embarrassing to me to be put in an antagonist position with regard to our host, when all I came here to do is discuss topics at hand. Unfortunately, I find myself swatting flies most of the time.

Not everything one does can be an instant success. We fail most of the time. Yes, even I do. Contrary to popular belief, not everything I post here is a masterpiece. But at least I try not to win the favor of others by aligning my posts with theirs and direct their orientation to where Mr. Grunbergs star is believed to shine. *That* is projection. How can I, a shadow, a black hole, ever project?

Carlos Dee

*SWAT*

Mieke

Could you post a picture of your sculpture when it's done? I would be very interested in seeing it.

Rutger

Revealing your true nature Rutger? Relax, I'm sure you have pills to make you feel better.

By the way, perhaps you should read "Mein Kampf" before suggesting Nazism wasn't about the Jews. Hitler's hatred of the Jews was very personal Rutger. Almost every page of Mein Kampf radiates "I hate Jews" Rutger. Its all very well projecting your abstractions onto the real world Rutger. In practice the world doesn't fit as neatly into your theories as you obviously believe yourself.

Rutger

I don't know why do you regard yourself as "a shadow, a black hole". If your aim is to discuss some general topics I can only suggest that you will better avoid wasting time on fighting flies. The quantity of your replies does count, and the result is that it will be difficult to the reader to seperate your general comments from the petty personal ones. Somehow the later test your original argumentations and do a disservice to them. I think it is enough that you stick to what you think without spoiling the impact with leaving the unnecessary infantile trail.
If, however, you do try to point something out by engaging yourself in those disputes, try first to be as speckless as you can. I think you should be able to be consistent if you want your comments to be taken seriously. It's ok to be righteous, but when you point out that Israelis are abusing their power, racially justifying it, and within the realm of a blog you address human beings as flies (probably without the intention of complimenting them) one may be at sea about your moral integrity. You may argue that words are different from deeds, but I think we all need a ceratin amount of trust within the communication to make it meaningful. In other words, don't allow yourself what you do not allow others.

Neria

I am not asking you or anybody to take me or my comments seriously. What you do is of no concern to me. I write. I do not write in order to establish or maintain "moral integrity". I leave that to the flies. Also, you don't need to trust me. In fact, you would probably do best ignoring me. Thanks.

are you tokkin' to me?

Oohlala, nice one... ready made opinions, petty people that deserve nothing but contempt. It sounds like Hans Van Temsche on a good day, but since you're the only one understanding beauty and art and life, I won't hold it against you. I probably just hit a sore spot: I bet you write lousy poetry, so posh that it smells of sewers. It tries to spread plagues, but even in evil it's confronted with failure.
Nice try though.

If we are the flies then you must be the real shit.
Holy shit. Let's all follow the new messiah.

Rutger

Thank you for being so direct and taking care of my time. I appreciate your sincerity and indeed from now on I will refrain from reading your comments.

I'd like to add that he nailed me, the very essence of me, mr. RH.

You should be a writer, mr. RH, with your skills of portraying people that you don't know. I'd read you like a book.

Dens

*SWAT*

Why is it, o antagonist, that you come here so frequently?

Rutger

I don't want to interrupt your farmland activity, but you don't need to prove again and again that you are a peasant.
In your imagination there always will be flies, cows, sheep etc.
When these themes are subjects of conversation you can speak.

Dens

So far, 17 of the 49 responses to this entry are directed towards me. How could I not be here? One has to be courteous at all times.

You, by contrast, are now a stain on the wall. And still you mutter. You make it hard to have mercy on you.

David

It is a bit of a disappointment to see you at the end of this queue, but now that you're here, I realize it was only a matter of time before you would call in. You know what the trouble is? Everything you say makes sense. It is just your name below it that spoils it all.

Rutger

*Moo*

I am "now" a stain on the wall?

What was I before?

@Rutger, you're much funnier than I would have guessed (no irony here). Perhaps I should've seen this earlier.

Nazionale Sozialisten für Israel

In case any one wants to take a break from interacting with Rutger, the Zionist Neonazis website is at http://www.nasofi.blogspot.com/ .