"climax of masculinity"
You mean after sending back a bottle of wine it's all downhill with masculinity?

I wonder how the woman felt. If she was impressed or not.
I hope she wasn't.

Trustworthiness

Did you find the wine as good as she had promised it to be?

Carlos

There is more than one climax possible in a lifetime.

Teresa

The wine was pretty good.

Arnon

If you meant "hoogtepunt" "height of masculinity" would have been better (like "height of foolishness", "height of arrogance", etc.). Unfortunately these translations don't have the sexual connotations "hoogtepunt" has, but "climax of" just sounds wrong in English. On the other hand it leaves the reader a little puzzled, which is sometimes a good thing.

In my opinion bottles of wine should be sent back more often in restaurants. I've noticed the Dutch don't send food or wine back much. Germans and Americans are much less afraid to. Does this mean they are are closer to a climax?

@Carlos
Germans and Americans are quite masculine – if we can agree about the desire and capacity to dominate the world. How about the Russians, the Chinese and the Arabs rulers?

I believe that sending back wine isn't helping anyone; Since you need the bad wines to distinguish the good ones. If you never drink a bad wine, why would you even bother to enjoy the good one. So it might be masculin, but I'd say it's quite irrational, as are women.

Carlos

A climax is the most intense, exciting, or important point of something isn't it?
A game can have a climax, a play -- masculinity can have a climax as well. Maybe the male orgasm is not the climax of masculinity.
I dislike sending back wine in restaurants.

Dens

Thanks.

An irrational female!!

I often send glasses of wine back, no bottles, I never order those, but a glass of wine wich tastes after the cork or wich has turned, I give back without hesitation.Should I consider this the man inside me? I don't think so. For me it is more a question of (fe)male courtesy. You want to prevent the owner to make the same mistakes towards another customer, but then this is only the case when the wine really is bad. Sending back a bottle just to impress your younger table compagnion is proof of really bad taste.

I never rejected a bottle of wine at the table, but I can imagine I would be served a bottle that I did not expect when I ordered it, or that does not go very well with the food. Certainly in a good restaurant, rejecting the wine does not imply it is bad or below standard. As the patron, I wouldn't think anything from it; I would definitely prefer opening another bottle to having guests who are not enjoying their wine and food.

As for any perceived masculinity, this is not based at all in the rejecting, but rather owed to the shape, or "Gestalt" I should say, of the bottle of wine. She is the woman. The manliness, if any, is not in the rejecting, but in knowing how to appreciate good female companionship. The rest if for boys.

Friends in the restoration branch told me that, after someone has send back a bottle of wine, they, the waiters, simply returned with the same bottle of wine and it was generally accepted.
The sending back was more a display of daring authority by the customer. Can we call this a climax? Maybe.
Arnon, when you were a waiter, have you never done this too?

Jan T

The restoration branch is a beautiful Freudian slip.

Rutger

Funny, but for me the bottle stands more for the want for a male compagnion. It's shape ( the top) makes me think of the male sex organ, at least that's when I had a few to many. But in essence I think it's about the "lack". For females the man, for men the woman.

Jan

That's something I never did. I admit in the beginning I felt personaly addressed, later I understood it was in my best interest to bring a new bottle.

Mieke

It's strange that sending a good bottle of wine back is considered bad taste, while wearing nice clothes is not. Or wearing make-up.
With a critical look most or all customs during courtship are silly. They only serve to make one look better than he or she really is.

Who would like to date me, naked, without make-up, eating frikadellen and fries, farting, slightly smelly, telling boring stories, being the grumpy asshole I most often am? Now that should be a display of good taste, because I am honest and hide nothing.

I know, I know, what I lack in charm I make up in weight.

@Arnon
Thanks for calling my stupid mistake in a more gentile way “a Freudian knickers, sorry, slip”.
How do we call ‘Horeca’ in plain English? Help!

Arnon

Since you're Dutch it's not surprising you don't like sending wine back.

I don't send wine back either. But if the wine isn't good I hate myself for not doing so.

A German friend in Sacramento dumbfounds American waiters by smelling her food when it arrives at the table. (She has a very keen nose.) If it doesn't smell right she sends it back. The waiters are taken aback, but it seems an acceptable thing to do in California. I wonder if this is the "climax of femininity".

Jan Thys

There's no easy translation for "horeca". The best one can do is something like "restaurants, cafés and bars". It depends on the context. Sometimes "hospitality business" is used, but its risky because it could give readers the wrong idea. Sometimes "catering business" might be possible in some contexts.

Sander

If you send a picture Arnon will post it with his next entry.

Sander

I am not so much worried about the little tricks men perform upon us (female), but about how those schemes infect us .
What do we find attractive in a man? His want to impress us - by giving back a perfect , good bottle of wine-, in other words his abundance of male testosteron or do we go for something more delicate , like his sensitivity. Maybe, we females have all our priorities wrong.

Mieke

I wouldn't read too much into the man sending a bottle of wine back. Perhaps he just had more sensitive taste buds. Would you be more likely to sleep with a man who sent a bottle of wine back?

I don't think wine is particularly masculine anyway. Would the Marlboro man send a bottle of wine back? Would he even drink wine? Beer, whisky, rum and vodka are masculine drinks. Women who make a show of preferring these often seem to be promiscuous for some strange reason. For many men women acting male is an enormous turn-on, something some women may consciously exploit.

Mieke

Do you think the appreciation of male qualities will change with the number of women that have no interest in starting a family increasing? Can women get rid of their biological (sometimes hidden) agenda?

Carlos

Tell me, how messed up are you? Do you think any woman will ever be turned on by these so-called male qualities like drinking beer, spitting, farting, burping, swearing, sweating, and what other cliches have you? Is that masculine, or the mockery of same? Your Marlboro Man is not a man, but a faggot (The Celluloid Closet is full of them).

Carlos

I’m not sure if my hesitance to complain about my wine in restaurants is connected to the fact that I have a Dutch passport.
I’m a frequent visitor of restaurants in NYC and it’s a rare occasion that a bottle of wine is being sent back over there, at least in the restaurants I go to.

Jeanette

Interesting question. Will there be a shift in what women find attractive in men? The so called masculin virtues never appealed much to me. It was only in growing older that I more clearly could define what I expected. This is another trend:Women tend to commit to long relationship at a more mature age.So maybe there will be a shift.
But the question remains. What is truly masculin? Does there even exist such a thing as a manly virtue?

Rutger

Of course the Marlboro man is a fictional icon. But it is a very carefully crafted fiction. When Philip Morris set out to do a makeover of their "Mild as May" Marlboro brand which had previously been mostly smoked by women, they were looking for the most masculine image possible. Advertising is the mirror of our society's desires and fears. The Marlboro man was a mirror of what people perceived to be masculinity.

All male gender narcissists have a hint of homosexuality Rutger. I can't help it if you're a self-hating one. By the way, has anyone ever told you you're a snob?

Carlos

Re: "Advertising is the mirror of our society's desires and fear".

Perhaps exhibiting platitudes such as these is your way of avoiding to being perceived a snob, i.e., "a person regarded as arrogant and annoying", according to my dictionary. It is indeed when people start liking me when I begin to worry, so you are absolutely right.

Mieke

Interesting indeed. Would that shift (partly) explain why a lot of women don't get into a relationship at all. Did they miss the "trap " of testostoron at an earlier age and have grown immune for this at a later age?
In The Godfather I Don Corleone states that a real man is a man that takes care of (or provides for) his family (sorry, I can't find the correct phrase). It sounds very old-fashioned, but still... Does the fact that nowadays women can provide for their family too change the way they appreciate certain qualities in men?

Jeanette

For me the shift that has mainly taken place is that instead of protection and guidance by the man - the patriarchial society-, we, women now look more for a relationship wich focuses on mutual support and understanding. Therefore instead of a man who is capable of imposing his authority we now prefer our partner to have a high E.Q. .

Jeanette

The main reason, according to me, why so many don't bother to get a relationship at all , is that many of us , including me , come out of an upbringing that gave us contradicting messages about how to behave and what to expect.
F.E. My father wanted me to study and obtain a good job, at the same time he thought that the womans task in life was to stay at home and take care of the children. Quite confusing and contradicting.

Mieke

If I look at educated middle-aged women I would say you are right. But when I look at teenagers and twenty-somethings, I see the same old adoration of the "manly man".

The other day in Amsterdam I overheard a conversation between two young women in their early twenties. One said she had decided to stay with her boyfriend, mainly it seemed because he had a huge penis and a yacht. Although she agreed he didn't treat her very well, and wasn't very faithful. The other kept going on about the expensive gifts her boyfriend gave her, and the difficulty of choosing between several very expensive watches.

But you are right, in general women are less economically dependent on their husbands or boyfriends. This means , in general, that they put up with less nonsense. Although there certainly are many exceptions.

Rutger

Its a shame someone claiming to be as well-read as you can't afford a better dictionary.

If you carry on this way, I'll have to be utterly merciless and have pity on you!

Mieke

Well there's an example of the message (like your father;'s) that leads a lot of women in their thirties to the split they're in: the pressure of having a good job and being an excellent mum too (besides maintaining a vivid social life , being an exciting wife and great support for their (sick) parents). I can see why educated women would skip this menu.
On EQ: a person with a high EQ economically can be more succesfull in life than a person with a high IQ (f.i. professors don't earn much). Looking for that quality in a men can come down to the aspect of money (and providing) again. Or am I completely wrong?

Carlos Dee

I wonder what makes you think that 'older woman' aren't looking for a large penis and a yacht too??
My (attractive) female neighbor of 52 is dating again, you won't believe the sizes offered to her.........

Jeanette

Nor a high E.Q. or I.Q. automatically brings success in life. And I know some professors who have both qualities and still earn not that much.
There are allways exceptions, but most women I know settle for the less richer man and go for other qualities.

Jeanette

Arnon has it all.
A high I.Q., very sensitive and now getting wealthier by the day.
What is it your after?

Jeanette

Which do you think would be more important to your friend: the huge penis or the yacht? How would she react if he sent a bottle of wine back?

To be fair to the young lady I eavesdropped on: It wasn't just her boyfriend's penis. What apparently happens is that every time she's on the point of leaving him they have a tremendous bang (in which his huge penis no doubt plays a prominent role) and she falls in love with him again.

Where I come from, the suburbs of wildest Anglo-Saxonia, the most masculine thing is to suffer in silence. I always allow my female companion to choose the wine. I would say, though, that silent suffering might be no less a form of domination than comical Mediterranean bragadoccio or prickish bottle-returning. Tricky world but the wine's usually good.

Mieke

I haven't been out hunting lately (that is for a decade or two)...but if I had to look for a man: I would say anything close to Ian Astbury (again).
If there's not a hint of rock and roll in a man and/or a great sense of humor, I'm out. (Kees Driehuis will defenitely be on my list.;-))
Another question: does Arnon resemble your father in any way?

Carlos

Your first question sounds very "Grunbergiaans".
My neighbor only drinks cocktails and water, so I can't answer your last question. About your first question: for one reason or the other she keeps telling me about the vehicles her boyfriends have. The first had a Harley but since he only polished it and she couldn't drive it she changed to a man that owns an American schoolbus and a double-decker bus. I'm not sure what she's actually telling me.
Do you own a car?

Jeanette

No, Arnon doesn't look like my father at all. I don't think they have anything in common in any way. Does that comes as a surprise to you?
My father passed away a long time ago, so they shall never meet. It would have been a thing of interest for me, though.

Jeanette

What I really wanted to know is: What is it your after in Arnon.
He's not really the rock and roll guy, but he definitely has a great sense of humour.

Jeanette

I do, but its in bad repair and has a nasty dent. I don't have a car fetish. I do like old Citroëns, but mainly because they evoke a different era. If money was no object I'd buy a very old Rolls Royce. But not to drive, to be driven in.

I don't know what your friend is telling you. Perhaps she likes men who are handy with their hands.

I was wondering if anyone ever sends cocktails back...

Mieke

I hope you didn't mind me asking about your father in this direct manner. I hadn't thought of the possibility he had passed away. Maybe you wrote about it earlier on this blog and I didn't read it. Somehow I had the notion you are searching for something else in a man, which brought me to my question. But your thought of a meeting between your father and a man you admire must be interesting for you indeed and is an inspiring idea in general.

Concerning Arnon, I haven't the slightest clue of his "rock and roll-percentage", since I never met him. It's not about listening to Bill Haley and his Comets by the way. What am I after? I will know as soon as it hits me. But there's something out here for sure that keeps me coming back. Maybe it's like going to church....? Maybe you can tell me what you think about the purpose of my presence here?

Carlos

Maybe my neighbor was telling me she experienced an upgrade in size (and number). She drives a Skoda by the way.

I happened to prepare cocktails and longdrinks but had nobody complaining or sending them back . Quite the opposite. But that was way back in the West Indies, where rum was almost as cheap as water and the weather too hot to complain.

In what country would you like to be driven around in your Rolls?

Jeanette

I am not ' Madame Soleil', so I can't tell what you find in our 'church'. That isn't such a bad comparison, I think this blog is indeed a little community in wich we keep discussions that cover a big variety, from smalltalk to the more serious, lenghty discours and out of the amount of comments by certain persons you can distract a rather intimate portret of the person in question without actually ever having seen him/her. At the same time this offers a kind of distance and anonimity that gives protection to everyone around.
I like this virtual world a lot.
P.S. I didn't mind you asking about my father. His death has become for me a fact of live, less hurting than it used to do

Jeanette

By the way I have even an other reason why I keep coming to this blog. From time to time I suffer from serious attacks , days, weeks, sometimes even months, of dysfunctional psychosis. Here I can still focus, this helps me to keep the attacks under control. Strange , no?

@Mieke
I would advise you: do not neglect psychotic experiences, but do not take them too serious neither. Consider them as other useful dreamlike states of the mind. (But I am not a psychiatrist – I speak only from personal experiences)

Jan

It sounds almost like you have some experience yourself in the matter. When I am in the midst of an attack, I mostly find what the voices have to tell me extremely nonsense, focusing is my real problem. So in fact it allmost has become a search for anything that helps me that way.
But thanks for your remark. I appreciate it highly.

Mieke

The comparison to a church was mainly based on the confessions you can find on this blog. Sometimes it's more like a buffoon's rock....but that might be the same.
I had a quick look at the Madame Soleil page. How did you get to know this phenomenon. Did she advice you once? If so, was it your money's worth?
Are you attending the upsoming meeting or do you prefer to keep your safe distance?

jeanette

Wich upcoming meeting? There are several. I intend to go to Eupen.