Sounds like a wonderfull day!

Yes, there is a lot going on beneath those headscarves. Naughty Muslimas!

Noa

You are so silent for the moment. Is something wrong?

Mieke

Maybe Noa finally got a life and dediced to look at the world, not just at screens.

@Mieke
Noa has her own site, see http://www.aliefka.com/over/.

I thought Noa was a man! Like i thought Vilde was a woman...if Noa is such a beautiful woman, is Vilde also a very beautiful man?

To stay on topic:

I think headscarfs are very sexy, and a lot of muslim girls are very sexy

Aliefka

I would love to have a drink with you and Jan one day.

@Mieke and Bernard, thank you for asking about me. I really look forward to that drink some day.

And Pefko - if you think headscarves are sexy, then I'm not sure whether to trust your compliment. Anyway, I've been a brunette for about a year now, I'm sure that will change your opinion. My celphone has certainly gone awfully quiet since. It's an interesting one, that one is.

@ Noa

Sexy: My opinion if someone is ‘sexy’ or not has not so much to do with the color of the hair, i like brunettes maybe a little more than blondes, and i don’t know if your color change has something to do with the silence of your cell phone. My compliment was for the stunning picture on your site.
Headscarfs: I mentioned it because some girls with headscarfs are very sexy, don’t you think? Those with the big, dark eyes, the mysterious types…

@Pefko, "Those with the big, dark eyes, the mysterious types… " the irony being what the headscarf is meant to represent. There's nothing sexy about a headscarf unless you're aroused by male dominance, which most men and some women are, I know. A headscarf represents repression. Any woman claiming she wears a headscarf out of free will is either suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or mistakenly using it for a sense of identity/belonging. Obviously, I'm playing devil's advocate, but my intention at present is not necessarily to convince you of my bold statements, merely to stimulate that you think a little Pefko.

Noa

I was afraid you would say something like this Noa. I am talking only about the females ‘under’ the scarf, read my First post on this topic; i think they are sexy, and that has nothing to do with repression! Repression is not ‘sexy’ (stupit word) at all, and i don’t want you to think that i like dominance.

Noa

A woman who wears a headscarf for fun, is or a patient or lost.

@Pefko, I understand.

Noa

"Any woman claiming she wears a headscarf out of free will is either suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or mistakenly using it for a sense of identity/belonging."
This comment does not only show your ignorance but puts you in the camp of the racists.
Nevertheless thank you for your honesty.

I wear a scarf -amongst other things-when I am carving in stone and it is fun and funny.

@Arnon - innocence or ignorance? I shouldn't have to say this, but I shared a room with a scarved woman for over 6 years. And right before the murder of Van Gogh, I joined the Ayaan group of women who were asked to advise her on how to find herself a larger 'achterban'. Of course, after his murder that all fell to pieces, yet my interest and work in that field did not, Except perhaps I am a little discrete about the work I do in this field, I don't feel it necessary to show off about it you see.
So perhaps you should think twice before you vent your own ignorance.
And a stockholm syndrome it most certainly is, ask your dear friend Buruma, he will agree.

@Mieke, by the way there's you have your answer on why I had gone so quiet. I was tired of Arnon humiliating me and belittling me. It seems there is no longer a place here for discussion unless it is about sex or how men should cut down on expendtiures for their women. Lord help whoever even attempts to try and say something serious about serious issues. Arnon, you say I am a racist? You yourself are a sexist. It does not become you, at all.

Headscarfs and burka's are the remains of a history. They were used as a cloth to protect women from the harsh desert. In the old days (Arabic) men had to 'schalk' (I don't know the English word for it) a woman from her father, trow her on his horse and drive to the desert for hours, maybe even days. This cloth protected her. Sometimes the burka is kept, in other cases it became headscarf.

I don't mind tradition.

Noa

Do you use hair products out of free will?

Noa

I extend my congratulations to you for joining the "Ayaan group of women who were asked to advise her on how to find herself a larger 'achterban'", I shall not forget to mention that this all happened " right before the murder of Van Gogh."
I extend my congratulations to you as well for having "shared a room with a scarved woman for over 6 years."
A scarved woman. Six years. Well well.
Really impressive arguments that totally convinced me that your comments cannot be labeled ignorant, stupid, paternalistic and right out racist.
When you write back to me please don't forget to point out that you cannot be called "racist" because you shared a room with a "scarved woman for over six years."
Please also add: "Shortly before or after the killing of Van Gogh.”
Thanks for your cooperation.

Oh Jezus Christ Arnon, I can't believe what I'm hearing here, would you please tell other people here to stop being so ignorant for a change? You all sound like the Dutch leftist politicians of the 80's. I'm actually quite shocked Arnon to find you use their same line of reasoning (eg. calling someone a racist).
Oscar - using hair products is a ridiculous comparison and you know it. But perhaps you're willing to show me what religious document tells me that as a woman I must use hair-products. A more interesting question would be: do I wera a headscarf myself when visting Teheran or Oman? The answert: yes. But what does that prove Oscar?
I am well aware the discussion must be nuanced, which is exactly why I said I wa playing devil's advocate.
Oh and one last thing Aron - next time you engage in discussion with people, you might want to refrain from throwing personal insults at them, It's a very Dutch thing to do. No social grace.

Noa

If you think you are playing “devil’s advocate” I have to tell you that you are not a very talented actor.
And if you think that these sentences (“shouldn't have to say this, but I shared a room with a scarved woman for over 6 years. And right before the murder of Van Gogh, I joined the Ayaan group of women who were asked to advise her on how to find herself a larger 'achterban'. Of course, after his murder that all fell to pieces, yet my interest and work in that field did not, Except perhaps I am a little discrete about the work I do in this field, I don't feel it necessary to show off about it you see.”) are proof of “serious discussion” I would like to suggest that you find another site where you can have serious discussions and play the devil’s advocate.
Again: thanks for your cooperation.

Noa

Do you believe that written laws are more potent than unwritten laws?

Oscar

There is no written law in the Koran for wearing a hijab.

Arnon

So you think Noa is a racist, but what about Pefko's remark:

"Headscarfs: I mentioned it because some girls with headscarfs are very sexy, don’t you think? Those with the big, dark eyes, the mysterious types… "

Is it just a bit of Orientalism I'm reading here or what?

Jeanette

Thanks for pointing this out. This makese my question even more pertinent.

Oscar

Unwritten law addresses everyone in the same way and - like the word says - it is law as such. A lot of written law was unwritten first and "gecodificeerd" after years of (good) practice, but the status doesn't change by it, law is law.

But what's your point?

Jeanette

Please re-read my question.

@Arnon, I am quite fuming that you call me a racist. That is a serious allegation.
Hubris, ignorant and now a racist.
You do realize it is equally racist to say "After this meeting I went to a high school in Rijswijk to meet three Muslim girls (with headscarves). " Because - why add the words"(with headscarves)?" Why even add "Muslim girls?" Would you ever write "an atheist white man with glasses"? No you wouldn,'t because you haven't.
@Oscar, this in itself (the fact that white menfind it necessary to pint out the headscarf) is proof that a headscarf represents a lot more than the use hair products. The Koran may not say a headscarf is obligatory, but you should all go to Teheran and ask every woman you see whether they'd freely wear a headscarf. The answer, I guarantee you, is no. They must, by law. By religious law. By religious law imposed by men, Iran is an interesting case study by the way considering the history of Iran.

Noa

Hermann Goering once famously remarked: In this city I decide who is a Jew.”
You might have heard of Goering. He shared a room with a scarved woman for more than six years. And shortly before the killing of Theo van Gogh he tried to liberate orthodox Jewish women. (You might know that orthodox Jewish women after getting married also cover their hair). Some of the women didn’t want to be liberated by Goering but that was clearly a sign that they were suffering from the Stockholm syndrome.
He also used to say to these Jewish women: “Your good friend Buruma is totally on my side.”
Goering had the habit to whisper after making another indecent remark: “I was playing the devil’s advocate.”
All this, my dear Noa, is to inform you that on this site I decide what is a racist remark.
My dear Noa, now I’m going to say something to you that lacks social grace. It consists of one word: out.
Please, heed my friendly advice.

Arnon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

Jeanette P

Yes, and why not? Why do we have to be correct in the first place?
People that want to be correct are most of the time hypocrites.
I know people that don’t want to talk about muslims because they think it would be incorrect. If everybody would talk about what’s in their mind we are at the beginning of a new age, probably an age thats so violent, so cruel and with such a shameless honesty that i talmost looks like ages from the past. People don’t change.

@Arnon - so you are allowed to freely call me names (arrogant, stupid, ignorant, prideful and a racist) as a reaction to anything I even attempt tp address which is a little more substantial, but if - in a weak moment (I admit, it would have been stronger of me to stick to my own standards, I usually don't call people names) - someone returns the favour you tell them to fuck off? Is this really fair? You call people nasty stuff which is irrelevant to the topic, you should expect and accept that you will be treated the same. You know what would be interesting? If you were to addressone of those letters in Het Parool to yourself. What would you say to yourself?
So, all right. I will "out" myself here because you so desire it to be that way. To all other commentators here I say - beware, do not make the mistake of speaking your mind aswell as opinion. What will then happen is you will be labeled a fool.

Arnon

I read all your posts regarding your ‘Noa’ problem, or your will to provocate in a way thats not only insulting, but also a bit useless and goes to far.
Why just not ask Noa never to post again? Are her post iritating, just say so, and don’t write this awful things!
Maybe your blog becomes more like a big show. The “Arnon” show, the writer that decides when someone is a racist, decides when someone have to go.
I think (and you will disagree) that your daily poster –like Noa- deserve some respect.

Noa

No Arnon took allready interviews with himself, it doesn't help., he just lies. I think his big problem is that he is scared to death for woman who have something to say.

@Pefko - I suppose I'm not allowed to post this: but as it was you i was discussing the issue of headscarves with to start with, I feel at liberty to give you a final note. You have my utmost respect for (surprisingly) turning out to be one of the few people here whose true identity does not remain a secret and at the same time dares to defend someone who is ridiculed by our host. I myself have defended quite a few people here in the past and I find it quite maddening to discover that when it all comes down to it, you do stand alone. Quite a paradox mind you in light of our host's own reputation.

Dear Dens,

just a few months ago -not that long- Noa defended you for what she mistook as a kind of teasing of me against you.
She wrote: "@Eric - hey !! Lay off Dens ,you boring old retentive anal babyboomer." This was on 04/08/2008 13:50
You don't feel like returning her the favor?

yours,

Eric

D.M. Pefko

I'm not telling you you have to be correct, all I was pointing out that our host attacks one commentator, while he could have done the same thing regarding your comment.
You mention people that don't want to talk about muslims. Maybe they only want to talk with muslims instead of talking about them?
You are a homo homini lupus guy? Do you experience it in everyday life?

Dear Mieke,

Several times you talked about the 'us' on this blog. For example you once wrote: "While with some co-commentators of this blog, I have the feeling that something has developed wich one could describe as 'us'.

Where is it Mieke, the 'us'.......where?

Eric

Jeanette P

No, our ‘host’ is busy for weeks now to criticize Noa, read back, in almost every post he has only comments on Noa’s pieces, and most of the time those comments are weak.
You know exactly what i mean about not talkin gabout muslims, having no opinion about them but secretly have one.
No, i’m not ‘a guy like that’ (nice choice of words jeanette) but i believe in what i posted there.

Noa

An old buddhist saying: when your roof is propperly fitted, it never rains in your house. Don't let Arnons remarks about you being a racist get to you.
I was taught racism is about excluding people.....

So if I exclude someone out of my life, that act of personal freedom makes me a racist, strange thinking for a jurist Jeanette.

Strasse's partner

Rugby is a sport, sport isn't Rugby. That's not too difficult don't you think?

D.M. Pefko

If Arnon reacts to Noa all the time, it must be working for him, for one reason or the other. Maybe he thinks her comments are worth commenting on, maybe it fulfills a certain role in the blog, maybe he is saving her or doing her a favour, maybe he's just as bored as Noa every now and then. Whatever. I appreciate Noa's input, if it were only as a startingpoint for discussions.

Well, about secret thoughts: you wrote earlier: "why do we have to be correct?" If I get on that train I could ask you: Why do people have to have correct thoughts? The ability of having secret thoughts is a blessing. I think I prefer people not dicussing certain items than people thinking A and saying or acting Z

You want people to talk/confess even more? I think you will be amazed about the nothingness rather than the debt of their evil thoughts.

@Eric (sorry mister Arnon but I can't help be who I am - so I have to do this), Please, Mieke and Dens have always been extremely civil to me and welcoming. They need not return any favours.

Noa

That exactly summarizes the problem, that you can't help who you are But it would be in everybody's interest if you start exhibiting this problem somewhere else.
I wish you well.

Dearest Noa,

Please let Miraculous Dens & Nurse Mieke speak for them selfs.
But most probably they will be silent this time.........

Let's go to a completely other matter.
Why did you write: "I myself have defended quite a few people here in the past and I find it quite maddening to discover that when it all comes down to it, you do stand alone. "
?

yours,

Eric

Jeanette P

If Noa’s reactions fulfil a certain role in the blog than i repeat saying he must give her some respect and not denay that he called her a racist or makei t worse than it was (see his last post to her)
If you appreciate Noa’s ‘input’ ‘if it were only as a startingpoint for discussions’ than why not say something to our nice host who is trying to sell me a fur coat made out of a least 50 hamster. (you see my point here?)
I agree that the ability of having secret thoughts is a blessing, but its also very hypocrite, and when those people start tot talk their opinion is worth nothing annymore.
“Why do people have to have correct thoughts?” thats a very interesting thing you say, thats maybe what i wanted to say.
(Most of the time i can’t say what i want because my English isn’t good enough to expres myself in the good way.
I want people to stop talking.

Pefko

"I want people to stop talking. "
Exactly.

@Eric - I meant Arnon. I have consistently defended Arnon everytime some nutcase came here only to insult him. Please, I urge you to address any further questions to me per email as I have been banned from this his website.

D.M. Pefko

Noa is a fictional character that I like for several reasons, starting or heating up discussions is one of them. If I like someone (or something) I don't have to behave the same way, do I? (I even couldn't, I lack her imagination.)

About the coat: I believe Arnon is pulling you a leg. Try and find a hamster in New Zealand: they are banned. Even when they slip through customs, it's not likely you will find 50 (that amount would not even make a slieve by the way).
If he is serious, the coat is a bargain and you might want to invest in it. But let him make a "certificate of authenticity" for you and ask (or take) a picture on which he is wearing the coat. You won't regret it.

D.M. Pefko

Noa is a fictional character that I like for several reasons, starting or heating up discussions is one of them. If I like someone (or something) I don't have to behave the same way, do I? (I even couldn't, I lack her imagination.)

About the coat: I believe Arnon is pulling you a leg. Try and find a hamster in New Zealand: they are banned. Even when they slip through customs, it's not likely you will find 50 (that amount would not even make a slieve by the way).
If he is serious, the coat is a bargain and you might want to invest in it. But let him make a "certificate of authenticity" for you and ask (or take) a picture on which he is wearing the coat. You won't regret it.

Noa

Arnon asked Margot Morgan to leave this blog more then once. She kept returning and in the end he gave her a dress. So stay.
I knew your view about the headscarves would making him pissed off. I hadn't realised to what extend.

making= make

Jeanette

I think Noa is less a fictional character than Arnon himself, but the strange thing thats happening here is that the host has no respect for the reactions, in fact; they are characters of an unwritten book, they mean nothing to him.
Lately i see Arnon more and more as a Robert G Mehlman, the character in his book ‘Fantoompijn’ (Phantom Pain, in English)
Mehlman wrote a couple of books, some of them were bestsellers, some not, in a sort of midlife crisis he doesn’t know what to do anymore, and he writes a cookbook called ‘De pools joodse keuken in 69 recepten’ that makes him worldfamous. I don’t know if ‘Onze Oom’ (Our Onlce) would do such a thing for him.
In the end he tries to stab someone on a Italian beach with a cooking knife, talks nonsens and is left with nothing, only his letters and bills, and maybe a furcoat?

Thats why i won’t buy it, just because he will need this fur one time.