2009/01/18 New York
Messiah
Bad poetry
‘Among some Orthodox Jews, one response to a member of the faith who egregiously violates their religion’s fundamental values and beliefs is to rend clothes and treat the transgressor as if he were dead — sitting shiva, or mourning, for him.
For the more secular there is a different response: convene a panel discussion.
Thursday night at the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research in Manhattan, it was Option 2: the Ivy League professors Simon Schama and Michael Walzer and the Wall Street powerbrokers Mort Zuckerman, Michael Steinhardt and William Ackman gathered to discuss “Madoff: A Jewish Reckoning.”
Or, as the program asked, “Where did this man come from?”
Seventeen-degree weather, airport-style security and a mandatory coat-check queue longer than the Rockettes chorus line did not deter an overflow crowd from attending an effort to shed light on Bernard L. Madoff, the man said to have bilked scores of Jewish friends and philanthropies out of billions of dollars.
Mr. Zuckerman, the chairman of Boston Properties, saw $30 million of his charitable contributions evaporate in a Madoff enterprise. He started off the evening by declaring that he objected to the discussion’s premise: that somehow Jews should have to account for “a sociopath,” writes Patricia Cohen in yesterday’s Times.
Shortly after reading this article I received an e-mail with an article written by a man named Eric Hazan who is described as a “well-known left-wing French Jewish writer.” Hazan writes: “The events in Gaza are the worst thing that has happened to the Jews since Auschwitz in two ways.”
I don’t believe that evoking Auschwitz in discussions about the Middle-East is very tasteful and I would say that more than enough people are discussing Gaza, so let’s stick to Madoff.
I know he is not very popular, but to me he is a messiah. Perhaps a false messiah, but a false messiah remains a messiah. Bad poetry is still poetry.
36 comments
Maybe Hazan should wake up and smell the phosphor Israel is pouring down on Palestinean civilians.
I wouldn't call bad poetry poetry. Either it's good, or it's not.
Have you used this picture before? I'm having a huge and weird déjà vu about it if not;
Arnon
Ah yes, thanks for the links. Hazan has a good point, obviously.
I can see why you're calling Madoff a messiah, you blasphemer, you (wink wink).
Arnon
please, define "messiah"...
Joanne
Please define "define".
Dens
How would you call bad poetry?
How would you call an ugly human being?
How would you call a tasteless pizza?
Mr. Arnon
I think i'd opt for "fragmented, ill-written prose" for bad poetry, but an ugly human or tasteless pizza remains what it's supposed to be. Or would you say you can level the material with the immaterial?
Dens
And how would you classify a bad novel? Ill-fated prose?
Upset
Maybe because ‘we’ feel more connected to the Americans, the Israelis and not to the Arabs. Slaughter between Arabs is merely an internal family affair.
Barack Messiah on TV
Tomorrow will be the most exiting day since airplanes smashed into buildings.
Arnon
Won't go into the Middle-East affairs, but couldn't resist to say following:
It's true, false messiah remains a messiah - but he is also "false".
Bad poetry is still poetry - but it's also "bad".
The same goes for politicians who lie (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4). They are of course politicians - but they also remain liars.
My point is, you/we can't make people or things be something they are not... even you or I badly want to.
i think it is fair to say that we are racist towards those who we don't consider "westeners". their lives seem to be of less value to us. when we judge the israeli's on their treatment of the inhabitants of Gaza, it is because they're supposed to behave like what we consider to be "civilised behaviour". But the thing is that a majority of muslims protesting against israel's attacks are selective in the same way and do not protest when muslim terrorists kill muslims.
Arnon
Have members of the Jewish community already been sitting shiva on you?
Are you already excommunicated? What does it take, before they do so?
I think a bad novel remains a bad novel. Of course I have no real reason to think so other than my inner workings, but I believe poetry transcents the judgment of good and bad. It's like aesthetics. True beauty remains beautiful despite the eye of the beholder.
But while I'm pondering about this, I become less and less sure. I'd have to rethink this one time.
Beauty exists objectively. it exists as a result of the existance of "beholders." The eye came into being, aesthetic appreciation came into being. The world shaped itself according to the preferences of the beholders, through natural selection - what was beautiful survived, what was ugly dissappeared. In a primitive stadium beauty meant fertility, power, utility.
Dries
So, when your line of reasoning is correct, the world becomes more and more beautiful.
Make-up Artist
You are too harsh on Hillary Clinton. It was a rather innocent example of mythomania. In my experience most people suffer from this illness, not only politicians. And I don't see the connection to poetry.
Mieke
Did I embezzle money?
I just wrote a few books.
Dens
So you expect poetry to live up to a higer standard than prose?
(And excuse me for using the same picture twice.)
Mieke
Alas the growing monopoly of rationality and the primacy of short term consumerist pleasure has severely undermined our natural appreciation of beauty. this is why the world is turning uglier, which diminishes our overall happiness.
Dries
Monopoly of rationality?
To what exactly do you object?
Mr. Arnon
Yes, I think it should.
Arnon
Where is the time someone like Spinoza was excommunicated because of his ideas. So now, it's embezzling money that does the trick?
arnon
Rationality wants to see- only what it can conceptualize, it turns a blind eye, ignores what it can not grasp in this way. By doing this, it will for instance deny that what it finds beautiful but cannot understand. From here on it will neglect such beauty, which will consequently diminish objectively.
mieke
I think it is possible that if someone today communicated thoughts that were proportionally as subversive to accepted thought as Spinoza's were to the accepted thought of his days, he would receive a comparable treatment.
i see your point though
Arnon
What you call 'an innocent example of mythomania', I call lies. Especialy in Clintons case (her husband included)
The clue is, if I lie (or innocently suffer from mythomania, to put it in your terms)
I'll lose here and there a friend, or a buck or two (if I lie to my client for instance)... in worse case t can ruin my own business and someone elses too.
But when the politicians lie, they are dangerous, as people often get killed and countries get bombed!
Huge difference.
Either way, I think I read somwhere on your site that you dislike politicians. That we have in common at least.
The connection with poetry is it's logic. We can't make people or things be something they are not. Regardless what we are talking about. A fish is a fish, it can't be made into a horse.
And by that I don't mean that we can't redesign a fork into a spoon... but rather that: fake money is fake money, false messiah is false messiah, bad poetry is just bad poetry.
The bottom line is: people and things are what they are, not what we want them to be.
We can however change ourself in many ways, we can change our lifestyle and even other people... in a way, we can change part of the reality as well... but that's another story.
Make-up artists
I’m not a big Hillary supporter, but I still think that in this particular case she was taken away by her own story telling.
I would call this fairly benign mythomania.
Dries
So if I don’t see beauty in your and/or your writings it’s because I’m too rational?
As a pick-up line it’s inventive.
Mieke
Ask the religious Jews in Belgium.
Arnon Grunbergs ;-)
What do you exactly mean by: "... she was taken away by her own story telling" ??
Make-Up A.
She got carried away by her own story.
Doesn't this happen to all of us from time to time?
arnon
?
maybe we're not understanding each other. I was commenting on the statement "True beauty remains beautiful despite the eye of the beholder. ", wasn't really talking about writings.
arnon
What i mean is that a society that has advanced far enough into rationality will never build any cathedrals anymore. it is not willing to invest in something that surpasses what is rational.
Arnon
-- Doesn't this happen to all of us from time to time?
Hmmmm I don't know, really, it's wel known that our mind fills the gaps and puts here and there little fanthasy, or tells the story as some unreal things happened (certain way) when we forget something.. BUT -- when someone shoots at you, there is no way you forget it, unless you develop Alzheimer. The other way around, when such an event in reality never took the place, one must be either crazy or extremely stupid while telling they were shooting at her.
Especially when knowing that (sooner or later) people are gonna check it out.
Therefore, if she's neither crazy nor stupid... nor she has Alzheimer, we have then one conclusin left : she's pathological liar, just like her husband.
And when such a$$holes bomb you country, there is no way you can be too harsh on them.
And if you prefer to call them 'mythomaniacs', I'll be fine with that.