See also:
- Matthew Alexander, author of How to Break a Terrorist: The US Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq.
- AMY GOODMAN: A former special intelligence operations officer who led an interrogations team in Iraq two years ago has written a stunning op-ed in the Washington Post. It’s called “I’m Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq.” In it, he details his direct experience with torture practices put into effect in Iraq in 2006. He conducted more than 300 interrogations and supervised more than a thousand and was awarded a Bronze Star for his achievements in Iraq.
(http://tinyurl.com/5dpayh)

(I think torture is not so much about information, it is about domination.
For example I know of a father who beat his son until the latter admitted that one and one makes tree – then the boy was again beaten for telling lies …).

P.S. read “… makes three...”

Bernard

I hope you took revanche on your father.

@Strasse's partner
The huge need for revenge is only one of the many feelings that may occur, beside fear, anger, hate, contempt, indifference and the desperate need for love and recognition.
(see for example the writings of “Boszormenyi Nagy”).

Arnon

That is some very well-considered torture. I interviewed someone yeasterday, and torture came up briefly: After I asked "what did you do after you cought ?", my interviewee replied: "We killed all of the enemy. Some we tortured first." From what he described, it was clearly not as well-organized as the torture you described...
Would you say torture becomes more or less acceptable once it is better organized? Or would you say it does not make a difference?

Batta

I'm not an expert on torture, but it is possible to kill somone accidentally -- torture by mistake is a rare phenomenon.
Are you in Kenia?

torture

It must be twenty years ago, on the news:
'de martelingen gebeuren onder dokterstoezicht'
'the tortures take place under medical supervision'
I haven't heard it since

Arnon

Not far from there. Savannah heat is somehow also torture...
I know you're not an expert on the subject, but I was curious about your opinion. When something happens as a result of chaos, and lack of leadership, it may be more acceptable in a way than when somthing is so carefully planned. I don't know... I wonder about these things, these days...

Arnon

I guess what I mean is;
How is it diffrent to say "torture / rape / mass murder was an unintended side-effect of our war" and "torture / rape / mass murder was a carefully designed strategy in our war"? Of course it is clear that there is a difference, but if one were to speak to the perpurtrators, it is hard to see the status of that difference.

batta

The end result of 'torture / rape / mass murder' is in both cases the same, either it's a side effect or it's carefully planned. Yet, it's interesting that these differences keep you busy.

I don't believe CIA leaves anything to accident, not even torture. :p

What surprises me personly, is that they break almost all international rules, especially the war ones - and the world is just watching. Things like Guantanamo are the most primitive, perverse barbarism. A nation which allows something like that, should be eshamed for ages. Especially western one., who claims they created democracy.

Make-Up Artist

Compared to other prisons Guantánamo is a civilized place.

Coco Fusco A Field Guide for Female Interrogators

arnon

thinking of violence reminded me of this book.
Have you read And the ass saw the angel by Nick Cave?
If so, may I know what do you think of it?

Andrea

I read "And the ass saw the angel" fifteen years ago.
I vaguely remember a scene involving a glass bottle.

oscar

oh, this one is hard to forget, even if you try...

Andrea

Honestly, I don't remember the details.

Arnon

I'm sorry to hear that. At least I believe you more than then I believe the newspapers. :)

I guess writers see things differently then journalists.

Andrea

I haven't read the book.

Make-Up Artist

Please remember that Guantánamo was open to journalists, the same cannot be said about many other prisons.

Arnon

Do you mean open to embedded journalists only, or open to all journalists?

Arnon

You don't really seem interested in a discussion. Why do you still maintain a blog? Is it only a playground or your groupies?

"Journalists have been ordered to leave Guantánamo Bay and local military authorities have had their permission to invite reporters to the base overruled following last week's suicides at the US detention camp....

Journalists have been granted sporadic access to the camp since February 2002 with permission from the US military's joint task force and office of military commissions....

Access is severely restricted. Journalists may not speak to detainees and lawyers are forbidden from discussing details of their cases with reporters who are present."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/jun/14/pressandpublishing.guantanamo

Make-Up Artist

I'm not sure if the word "embedded" is the right word for journalists travelling to Gitmo. In some ways the restrictions at Gitmo for visiting journalists are more severe than the restrictions "embedded" journalists encounter in Afghanistan or Iraq, but then again I'm not sure what your question really is. Are you suggesting that some of the inmates at Gitmo are journalists?

Make-Up Artist

PS I suggest you read my articles about my visit to Gitmo January 2007.

Batta

Do you really believe that every question merits an answer, that the questioner should be upset when I refuse to answer certain questions?
This sense of entitlement keeps surprising me.
In my opinion your last question about torture borders on the hideous.
All torture can be described as the result of lack of leadership. All torture is a means to an end.
Please, keep in mind that it is not my fault that you get bored while visiting Africa.

Arnon

You are just a horrible person. I am happy for you that you have some talent, because the only thing worse than a horrible person is a horrible person without talent.

Batta

They say about me that I'm horrible, I sure have no talent but apparently I'm quiet good in bed, is that enough to live, knowing that I'm rather harmless except perhaps for those I once loved.

Arnon

I didn't know you've been there. No I'm not suggesting anything (well, I believe I don't) but rather asking the questions. In general, I don't believe journalists who are writing about wars in certain countries and everything that goes with it..

Ill check your articles from 2007.

Arnon

The footer of this article:
http://www.nrc.nl/kunst/article1768437.ece/Guantanamo_de_romantiek_van_de_gluurder
... says "will be continued", but I couldn't find continuing part.
Is this the only one ever published?

Make-Up Artist

The articles can be found in my book "Chambermaids and Soldiers" -- (Kamermeisjes en soldaten.)

Batta

I share the same feeling with you regarding the hidden etiquette of this blog, it reminds me of Jonathan Edwards' sermon: "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". Without a clear set of rules everyone here is bound to be the spider:

"The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire: he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire".

I learned from Arnon not to expect anything from Jews so I no longer expect him not to be a Puritan. I think that if one leaves a comment here one shouldn't automatically assume s/he's predestined for salvation :)

batta

its only yours expectations that are hurting you.
No one on the world can do that for you, not even Arnon.

Andrea

I don't agree with you. I think Arnon is using a kind of media that has developed a right for certain expectations over the years. I also think that one way of understanding the very frequent discontent with Arnon's conduct is that he allows himself privileges he deprives from others. If the blog is the meeting place of Buddhists or ascetics of any kind, it is only fair to let potential commentators know of it in advance rather than punish them retroactively for transgressing the laws.

Arnon

Thanks for the info..

neria

and not responding being the hardest punishment, right?

come on, we are talking about human being, you cannot force anyone to talk to you, or to like you, no mather how right you are.

andrea

No, I am not talking about this, I'm talking about a far broader series of violations. I don't understand the continuous paising of manners, which seems to me a collective common denominator, with their subjective fulfilment.

neria

what do you mean?

andrea

I think that the idea of manners is empty if made up by one person. Arnon is a great devotee of manners ,however, very often (but still randomly) he chooses to be rude. Usually he doesn't bother to explain his reactions (today is an exception). Since, as I previously argued, the reality of blogs had created a universal etiquette for bloggers and commentators, breaking it naturally calls for objection. Preparing commentators for the very possibility of being ignored for nor apparent reason would have saved the frequent expressions of discontent.
At this stage I honestly am not interested in the personal reasons which bring Arnon to avoid preparing newcomers for this mode of behaviour. I have noticed though that after pointing out that the welcome letter was signed with the misleading 'love', it was removed (with the welcome letter as well, if I am not mistaken). This is good.

neria

you see-and I read this blog because of his rudeness.
It makes people pay more attention to what they actually say, which eliminates certain amount of stupidity. And another people get upset and act funny, which is sometimes pure pleasure to watch.

And I belive there is a difference between being rude and just using it to somehow clean the way. Until I dont know him in person I cannot say if what I see is wisdom or just being clever cunt. And I am looking forward to find out.

Nice discussion ladies..

Andrea

How are you gonna find find it out?

andrea

Enjoy!

@Andrea

I think the exact opposite - I think it promotes stupidity. I'm sure that everyone who can't resist coming here eventually despises himself/herself for exactly that: not being able to resist coming here. To me, that's the most fascinating part of all this. Not the inability to resist in itself, but this idea of self-hatred clowning around on a stage in the form of self-evasiveness or wit.

I think meeting people is easy :)

Aliefka

I like visiting this blog. I don't see why should I feel shame for reading and writing here. In fact the experience of this blog taught me hat I can enjoy whatever sort of pause it provides me - intellectual, humoristic etc, without being emotionally involved with anyone. I think it's very freeing.

Aliefka

On February 20, 2009 you wrote on this site:
“I must choose to leave - I'm sure to your relief (and Oscars), please note though there are others who quite passionately asked me to stay.”
Are your promises completely worthless?
Shouldn’t you start working on your novel or playing with your kid instead of flaunting your addiction on this site?
I ask you passionately to leave and I wish you well.

Arnon

I think that Aliefka suggested that the heroine of her new novel is based on me, therefore it is possible that participating in this blog is actually a field work.

Arnon, before you explode in rage on seeing my name again: please hear me out. Technically speaking, the above was not a promise.
Yes, I am doing all the things you say I should be doing - thank you for your concern, but I do so while blogging, reading your site, and twittering. Granted, I like to think the whole online stuff I find myself fascinated in is research, but usually it's plain and simple procrastination or even addiction. I used to smoke, now I do this. I always hoped it was a harmless addiction, but maybe you'll prove it to be otherwise. In any event, I do enjoy reading what's going on in the interactions between you and the people that come here.
If I had been a new commentator, the above would not have irritated you. I could have pretended to be someone else. So it seems your judgement of me is - unfortunately - set in stone. I wish there was something I could do to change it, over a coffee for example. At least to explain how/why I came to certain statements.
Neria, don't worry. My new novel is not based on you. I admit, I was indeed working on a story inspired on this blog. But I didn't like what it was becoming and so I set it aside a long time ago.

Aliefka

I didn't know I should.