Does it make you feel guilty of are you proud of it?

typo's

That's two typo's in one (pretty familiar) name. Are you allright?

Moral values

I do not think it is a matter of being afraid of literature as such. The establishment is afraid of "dangerous ideas" and the "erosion of moral values". And of course the censors correctly saw Ginsburg's work as a challenge to "mainstream society". After all, this was Ginsburg's intent. The irony is that attempting to suppress "dangerous literature" gives it more public exposure than any publisher could hope to otherwise achieve.

An argument could be made that literature is always on the periphery of society. In the sense that the observer must distance him/herself from what he/she is observing.

Hordijk

I guess unconsciously I like Ginsburg better than Ginsberg.

Carlos

The position of the novelist is not necessarily the same as the position of the novel.

Grunburg

Would you prefer to be named Grunburg?

Arnon

I agree. But, in the end, the author is prosecuted not his or her work.

periphery

I wonder if the best literature isn't on the periphery of society by definition. Isn't it the job of artists to push boundaries? You can't push a boundary from the middle.

I think I don't understand the statement in the last paragraph of the blog-text. Isn't there allowed quite a lot in novels? Does it mean literature is allready in the periphery of society?

Carlos

The defendant in the obscenity trial was Ginsberg’s publisher not Ginsberg himself.

Hordijk

As I said before, the position of the novelist is not necessarily the same as the position of the novel.
The typo has been corrected. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

M.Hordijk

I think the prime objective of an artist is to be critical of the system, called society. To analyse the system, to pose valid questions, etc.. Sometimes you have to look up the boundaries , the periphery, to obtain this, but not always, not by definition, I think.

Karima

Fully agree with you.

What strikes me as funny lately is that Arnon Grunberg gets an award (in the netherlands) for having such a sharp and creative point of view which he defends ''pherociously'' (is this oke bert?).

Arnon, tell us, you had a good laugh over this statement of the jury or not?

Anyways: the initial statements on this blog are good for thinking about it, but it's most of the time not an opinion at all. That's not criticism from my side, i thinks that's fine.

On the boundaries of society we can always write a novel under a ''pseudoniem'' name, while staying with the mainstream publishers under our own name.

The mainstream publishers are mostly mainstream i am afread. A bit brave new world i would say.

By the way, i walked into the selecx bookstore in Amsterdam and a saw thar Franzens novel is called fridom. I will not read it, just because of the title;)

Mieke

Yes, I agree. The work should push bounderies. That's what I meant but I don't think I expressed myself too well.

@Arnon: I don't wanna whine, but I do think the poets first name is Allen. (Irwin Allen Ginsberg )

Hordijk

Another typo.
Thanks!

Karima

In Western societies almost everything is allowed in novels and poems in the name of literature. If your questions was: "Is this the case?" My answer is: "Yes, this is the case."

Periphery

But what does periphery mean in this case. It's maybe only the ''allowed periphery'', the clownesk, that entertains and doesn't really pushes society, like in brave new world where a lot is allowed as long as it doesn't really harm or attack the mainstream. (Your argument seems to be a reversed one too me, which is not always the same truth)

I had a discussion with a Catholic priest last Friday. Amongst many things he asked me what I thought the last taboos were. I didn't think long and said: " religion (obviously) and loneliness ". He agreed and then added "but the biggest taboo is depression."
I knodded.

Periphery 2

Eventually a court will define the border between the allowed periphery and the forbidden periphery, in the name of society.

Milan

''pherociously'' (is this oke bert?).
No, it isn't. It should be 'ferociously'.
''pseudoniem'' - pseudonym
- i thinks that's fine. - I think
- saw thar Franzens novel is called fridom. I will not read it, just because of the title;)
- saw that Franzen's novel is called 'Freedom'...
- YOU WON'T READ IT JUST BECAUSE OF THE TITLE ??!!
- Jesus, you are dumb!

"doesn't really pushes" - doesn't really PUSH...
@L. David
knodded - nodded
'knock' yes, ....
================

the literature of a periphey

has it that heaven is a dallas whore; if peripherality isn't too colonialist a concept,which i think it probably is... in commanche dallas is 'big whiteman stores'.. comanche is nearer dead than romanish existing only in hymns
anyway this superbowl indicates a rehabilitation the oligarchs of bid d have politicking for for a time
it will be orgiastic i prophesy

So enough with the grammar and phonetics police, already.

The proofreader, like a blister, comes after the work is done. Read Bartleby the Scrivener by Melville, you'll see what happens if you take the English language too seriously.

Self-censorship

Take for example your novel Tirza. Maybe you made a bet with someone that you could write within your new novel, and in details (a few pages minimum),
that sombody of and also more or less because of his islamic background will be killed with a chainsaw by a dutch publisher, while reading the koran, and still
get away with this. You won this bet. But i could argue that you still used selfcensorship to do so.And not because every person will use
it more or less subconsciously, but deliberately by constructing the novel, finding ways, knowing our culture, to not fall of the mountain
but save yourself as a writer and as a citizen.

@Bert
thanks, had a bad feeling about this posting (red wine;))

sombody=somebody

Quin

Good to have you back. Can't wait to see the Dallas whore.

Quin

Can't wait to see her as well. But before Arnon, if possible.

Mr. Grunberg,

So that means you are opinionated in Western societies literature is in the periphery of society. I wonder. Maybe I misinterpret, but according to your statement the literature of, for example, a writer in exile is NOT in the periphery of society. Does your statement imply you prefer that position for literature?

Milan,
I mainly disagree with you. Not only today.

@Karima
These, antithese and synthese;)

Literature and censorship

An acquaintance of mine, who worked in a bookshop, once said to me: ‘Oh, do not read Houellebecq, he is too pessimistic and depressive’. It seemed to me that she wanted to protect me.
After reading L’ Extension du domaine de la lute, I realized she only wanted to keep a idealized memory of what happened during our student years.
Censorship is about keeping silence of what (mainstream) people do. Literature does not push boundaries, it only tells us about the boundaries pushed (often by mainstream persons), I think.

Karima

We were speaking about censorship and obscenity trials weren’t we? Yes, censorship and obscenity trials might result in exile, but this is not necessarily the case.
And once again I have to stress that the position of the author is not always the same as the position of the novel.
An author might be in exile; he might be forced into the periphery while his books remain very much in the center.
I’m thinking about certain authors who had to flee the Soviet-Union, but their books remained through “samizdat” publishing in the center that the author himself was forced to leave. I’m thinking of Solzhenitsyn, but I’m sure there are more examples.
Anyhow, I have the feeling that you don’t grasp the meaning of my entry because either you are reading too fast or you are jumping to conclusions.

Bernard

There is a distinction between advice and censorship.

Typo

@ M. Hordijk
One typo, two or more typos.
No apostrophes in English after a vowel. Although there are - of course - exceptions (!).