Arnon

What brings you to Dublin?

Oscar

I do have a rather beautiful apartment in Dublin not far from St Stephen’s Green.
It might have come to your attention that I celebrated my 35th birthday in Dublin. I plan to celebrate my 40th birthday in Salta, Argentina, but I don’t have an apartment there.
And if I’m still alive I plan to celebrate my 50th birthday in the Namibian desert. I don’t rent or own any property in Namibia.
My love letter to your future wife is not making much progress. It’s more a lust letter than a love letter to be honest and we all know that love is worshipped whereas lust is despised so I fear that my carefully chosen words will only cause your future wife to look down on me. In other words I’m still making alterations, early this morning I deleted the paragraph in which I described what I plan to do with your future wife when you are going to the supermarket to buy some eggs.

A friend of mine, nicknamed ‘Fat Johan’, with an academic degree in art history, lived for about 10 years in Kerry, Ireland in the eighties. He told me about a kind of fundamentalist Gaelic groups in that region, a very weird and scary story. In the beginning, he too idealised Ireland and the ‘unspoiled’ locals as an immigrant. I think he believed to enter a world of Hobbits.

the false mirror

please do not idealize yourself! this is the problem.

‘The Complete Works of William Shakespeare’ is the best performance I have ever seen of Shakespeare. In a small theatre in London called Arts three men let you experience all 37 plays in 97 minutes!

Arnon

I was unaware that you celebrated your 35th birthday in Dublin. I remember the apartment now, and the alarm.

I'm sure that Laura would appreciate a lust letter. She is happy to hear that you are making progress. Laura likes the idea of a love letter written on several continents.

For some reason not entirely clear to me, I'm reminded of one of my favorite aphorisms, from 'Beyond good and evil': "In the end one loves one's desire and not what is desired".

I think I was 8 when I did a psychological test where I had to answer who my ideal was. I didn't know Ideal yet, and I thought the test meant Idol, so I put in a crappy band (because I 've never had an Idol). When the psychologist explained ideal to me, I said that I wanted to stick to my answer, because I don't know the basics of idealisation. When I was 17 I might have idealised my father. But you, Mr. Arnon, by being imperfect, are a good chance to be an ideal. Hooray for you.

Oscar W

The story with the alarm that went off happened in my former apartment in Donnybrook Castle.
Currently I live in Dublin 2.
If things go well with Laura I plan to invite the two of you for my 40th birthday.
The Nietzsche-quote didn’t ring a bell.
Also I need some explanation, you desire what is not desired, meaning desire is by nature forbidden? Or you desire something you don’t really desire?

Andrea,
Forgive me and my twisted little brain but when I first read your comment I thought you experienced an orgy with Shakespeare as a theme.

Tako,
Your statement is not quite clear. Please explain.

Dens,
What was the name of that 'crappy band'?

Arnon , why do you think we are idealising you? You hardly present yourself as the perfect man.

Arnon

Is there a reason behind your choice of places (40th birthday in Salta, Argentina, 50th birthday in the Namibian desert)?

Johannes

Don't hate me for this: Leopold III (I told you it was crap)

Mieke

Please read carefully. The fact that I warn you against idealizing doesn’t mean that I assume that you are presently busy idealizing me. People tend to idealize, and to despise. That fact that you flock to this site is foreboding.
Anyhow I respectfully disagree with you. I do present myself as the perfect man.
Your comment is a slap in my face.

Leopold III

Dens,
I was just curious. Never heard of that band, what kind of music is it? It's an awesome name.

@ Arnon

There is only one aspect of you I tend to idealize and that is your physical appearance. There you have the hold over me. Unfortunate we don't see a lot of that on this blog.

Arnon

About the Nietzsche quote. I think that the relationship between people and the objects of their desire is better understood once one appreciates that people love desire more than the things that they desire.

Laura and I would be delighted to attend your 40th birthday. We will bring eggs.

I have always been either uncritically in love or just critical.

Oscar

That the desire itself is desired sounds plausible to me.
But never underestimate the object of desire. Laura is not innocent when it comes to me desiring her. She could have been named Fern or Magic Dragon.
And then there is the desire to be desired, to be wanted.
We need to know that the person we desire is also desired by others.
In this way the role I play in your relationship with Laura is quite constructive. I hope you forgive me for commenting on your private life in public space.

Mieke

You sexist, you don't want me for my brains. Dirty woman! Wash your mouth with soap.

Quote

Oscar Wilde,
Where exactly in Beyond Good and Evil can I find the quote?

Johannes

You can find the quote in chapter 4, in the Dutch translation called 'Spreuken en tussenspelen', aphorism nr. 175.

Zanna,
Thank you. I found it.
What do you think about it?

Arnon

It's funny. The more I think about it, the more I believe that I'm indifferent about whether or not the things that I desire are desired by others. Perhaps you could convince me to agree with you.

Johannes

Have you been able to find a copy of the movie "Howl's moving castle"?

Arnon

You are forgiven for commenting on my private life in public space. Laura and I certainly appreciate your role in our relationship. If we get married, will you do our wedding flowers?

Oscar,
No, I didn't look for it yet, but I will.

Oscar w

You desire something that is desirable.
By obtaining the object you desired (and you might still desire) you add value to your existence.
Unless you have exiled yourself out of society (see for example the movie Sans Toit ni Loi by Agnès Varda) you cannot escape society’s judgment completely.
Desiring something (or somebody) that is not desired by anybody else is a foolish and self-destructive act.
It’s often an illusion that you can be critical of the society of which you are a member. Maybe that’s why it’s an important illusion for you that you could not care less that your Laura is desired by others or not. That she is smelly; covered with lies, and without teeth.
As in the famous song from the musical Cabaret:
I know what you're thinking
You wonder why I chose her
Out of all the ladies in the world
That's just a first impression
What good's a first impression
If you knew her like I do,
It would change your point of view-

If you could see her
If you could see her thru my eyes,
You wouldn't wonder at all.
If you could see her thru my eyes,
I guarantee you would fall
(Like I did)
When we're in public together,
I hear society moan,
But if they could see her thru my eyes,
Maybe they'd leave us alone.

How can I speak of her virtues?
I don't know where to begin.
She's clever, she's smart, she reads music,
She doesn't smoke or drink gin.
(Like I do)
Yet when we're walking together,
They sneer if I'm holding her hand,
But if they could see her thru my eyes,
Maybe they'd all understand...

[Spoken]
Ladies and Gentlemen, I ask you,
Is there a crime to fall in love?
Can one ever choose where our heads lead us?

[Sung]
Oh, I understand your objection,
I grant my problem's not small;
But if you could see her thru my eyes,
She doesn’t look Jewish at all!”

Also ask yourself why is that most pornography involves more than two people.

Arnon

Great comfort can be found in illusions. I agree that it is an illusion to believe that one can escape society's judgment. One of the most comforting illusions concerns the notion of free will.

If something is desired by others, this definitely adds to its value. But does this mean that it is necessary for something to be desired sensibly to be desired by others? What if I'm the first person to desire a certain thing that is later desired by others? Is it sensible to consider the relationship between oneself and something without considering the relationship between that something and others?

Object of desire

My first object of desire was my mother, of course she rejected me. So the second object of desire was my neighbour. Then I got beaten by my mother, out of concern I think. Maybe to deliver me from illusions.

Thank you, Arnon. Until now I had only a superficial understanding of the word sexist. Now I really feel enlightened . Enjoying my sexist feelings, I have obtained a better insight in my own character.
Yours truthful,
Mieke

oscar w

I tried to come up with an example of you (or anybody) being he first to desire something.
Why do you desire something?
Because for all kinds of reasons (biological, cultural etcetera) you know or you assume that it good to have, to own, to conquer, to buy, to rent, the desired object.
Yes, in some circles it is considered undesirable to desire something that is desired by the mass.
You might desire loneliness after let’s say a disastrous marriage with your Laura, but even in that case you know that others who are trapped in relationships and marriages might desire the same thing.
The market, whether we call the market free or not, would collapse if your desire were not related to other people’s desire.
I desire Laura because you desire her. As soon as you would stop desiring her, my interest in Laura would fade away.
On a Freudian note you might say that I desire you through Laura but sometimes we should take Freud not too literal.
I will read Chomsky’s book you recommended.

Arnon and desire

Actually, this comes very close to what René Girard called "mimetic desire".