Button “M”, I would have expected a beautiful lady to come to give you a massage. So the ”M” also stood for “machine”. Another expensive rip off.

Arnon

The answer to your question why I kept coming back is quite simple: I enjoyed our conversation.

My fiancé is not Saudian, but he is somehow Arabic.

We stayed in a flat in el Muhandissin. He had a stomach flue and was quite sick for a few days. I saw him vomiting a few times and I helped him wash himself when he was too weak from the fever. It didn't change anything. I just know now that this person can catch a stomach flue.

Idealization and subsequent hatred is something one can get passed.

I've got 8 more nights before I head back to la Belgique. Enough space will probably be my only concern on the flight (and of course passing the customs with my fake textile. Tomorrow I'm off, I'm going to buy me a nice suit that'll last me at least 4 years.

Batta

Of course you can get passed idealization, you can fall out of love as well.
Somehow Arabic meaning -- he has a grandmother from Syria?
It’s important to be specific.

to be or not to be, specific

of course it is important to be specific , even when you are making up stories. specific, detailed fantasies. specific, detailed untruths.

speaking of which: any new books lined up, mr. Grunberg?

Arnon

Please understand that my lack of specificness is related to a certain (probably irrational) hesitation to place personal information on the internet. It is not because I am secretive.

My fiancé is an Arab. He speaks an writes in Arabic and he feels Arabic. He has ancesters who were Arabic traders but also he has ancesters who were slaves. His Arab identity is to some extent a political construct.

Of course one can fall out of love. But isn't this acceptable?

Arnon, Coetzee and me

Months ago, I wrote and asked myself here on this blog, if I behaved selfish when in the arms of a nice and beautiful lady I sometimes think ‘This is a nice place to die’.
The answer is given by Coetzee himself, he ended his last novel around such thoughts.
Thanks you Coetzee, thanks you Arnon.

Batta

To a certain degree every identity is a political (and cultural) construction.
If your fiancée by any chance looking for a EU passport or does he have an EU passport?

FM
Perhaps M was the first character from the name of the beautiful woman, giving you a massage. Did there stand another character, for example E, in the armrest in the chair beside you?

Arnon

I agree that every identity is to some extent a political construct. Yet, some political constructs may be harmful, for example when they inform an aggresive military strategy.

I do not believe that my fiancé is very interested in a EU passport or any other passport. I guess he does not share your interest for travel documentation.

What made you assume that he would be interested in that?

Batta

Without a passport you don’t exist. Coetzee has some informative things to say about this in his last novel.
As to military aggression, I’m not a big fan of these world views where the world is divided in the good and the bad guys and somehow my gut feeling tells me that you are supporter of such a world view.

Arnon

I hate to contradict your gut feeling, but I am not a fan of a world view that assumes a sharp division between good and bad guys. I think that, in certain contexts, a political construct (e.g. a state or an identity) may become part of a political strategy, which in turn may obtain a military dimension. In such contexts, some people may behave in ways one could qualify as "bad", others in ways that could be qualified as "good". These qualifications exist merely in disourse, they are not part of the "real" world. There, it is all just behavior. In my view anyway.

You avoided answering my question, or did you forget?

Batta

Not part of the “real” world? I’m not sure how you would define the real world. Morality is very much part of the real world. Yes, morality is a human construct, as is let’s say an airplane. Would you argue that Lufthansa is not part of the “real” world?
My god, have you never managed to get over philosophy 1.01?
The fact that you use a lot of jargon, leftovers from sociology 1.01, political science 1.01 and the already mentioned philosophy 1.01 cannot hide the fact that you don’t say anything.
A political construct can become part of a political strategy and obtain a military dimension?
And in the real world it’s just behavior – this is worse than listening to a presidential candidate.
As to your question: citizens of the world without EU or US passports are second class citizens, it’s a very natural and logical desire to upgrade your citizenship, with all means available.

Arnon

I simply had to come out of my grave for a sec to thank you for this last answer for Batta. I couldn’t understand how no one comment on this copy pasting answers. Pfff.
And by the way, it’s almost Yom Kippur.

Arnon

That it is understandable that people without EU or US passports may desire to obtain one, does not mean that all those people have this desire. Some people may not perceive themselves as second class citizens, even though they do not hold a EU or US passport. Such is the case with my fiancé.

I agree that an airplane is a human construct. I would say that there are some significant differences between qualifying an object as an airplane and qualifying behavior as good or bad. They way we stablish if they are true or not differs from let's say the way we establish whether an object is a Lufthansa plane. That does not mean that moral statements are irrelevant.

I am sorry this all comes across as the misuse of jargon. I am even more sorry that it comes across as opaque. There is only so much that can be captured in a few sentences and I do not intend to write essays on your website. I am sure that comes as a relief to you.

Your insults are rather cheap. Especially since they come from someone who could himself actually benefit from those 1.01 courses.

Today I had a free massage offered by my company. It was in the oldest Turkish bath of Western Turkey. I couldn't fully enjoy it, as I predicted, because I don't like other people touching me, but the guy who performed the massage knew his people skills as he said to me "don't worry sir, just be happy".

Batta

Well thank God that you agree that an airplane is a human construct.
But if your memory is still working you might recall that you stated that the terms “good” and “bad” were not part of the “real” word. And that’s what we were discussing.
Am I right in concluding that you now apologize for making this rather hideous statement?
Now we have established that your fiancée is not interested in obtaining an EU- or US- passport is it fair to assume that you move to his country? Or are you continuing this long distance-relationship, which will give you the opportunity to clean up his vomit in a hostel somewhere in the third world? Some people might call this romantic.
I never insulted you, I merely warned you for the small disasters that can be caused by using too much jargon.
I’m very much afraid that you taking the course philosophy 1.01 didn’t do you any good. Your last statement that you mean to say that moral statements are not irrelevant shows the need for pushing your life in another direction.
You know probably that carnival is also not completely irrelevant. This is what carnival and moral statements have in common.
If you start working on a carnival song by now you might stop making yourself completely irrelevant in the year 2008. You might.
And yes, carnival is a political construct and yes some political constructs might be harmful but you are going to use this useful information as the refrain in your carnival song called “Batta is a human construct.”

Ilanit

You can always come back from the grave – as long as you know that I might refer to you in the near future as a Trojan horse.

Arnon

My apology regards my apparent incapability to express my thoughts clearly.

I merely meant to point out that behavior is not inherently good or bad. I guess I could have just said that, but over-exposure to jargon has apparently had its effect on me.

As for my last statement -the one containing the word 'irrelevance'- I assumed you would pick up the subtle reference to the early Wittgenstein.

Do you consider yourself a mean person? Can you see why people may sometimes qualify you as a mean person?

Arnon

Being in the virtual grave is costing me a fortune since my other ‘boredom cure’ while on the internet is buying designer cloths at my favourite Italian store. So I contemplated forgiving you for calling me a horse when you will express your outmost regret at Yom Kippur. Any expression of that kind during the days of awe would have worked as well. Unfortunately this will never happen. The only other alternative is for you to convince me that I am a horse. So at the mean time it’s ‘Dirt and Galliano’.

Batta

I missed your reference to the early Wittgenstein. But did you pick up my reference to the late Flaubert?
I’m glad that the war against jargon is leading to something.
As to your question whether I consider myself a mean person. The answer is no.
Sometimes it is necessary to be cruel (did you pick up my reference to the middle-aged Machiavelli?) but since I use my cruelty for an honorable cause – to cure people from their diseases – I’m quite the opposite of mean.
It seems to me that you have some friends who think that I’m a mean person -- I would love to meet those people. Actually I would love to come to their houses to do a reading there. (This is not a joke or irony.) The person must convince me before my visit that he or she really beliefs that I’m a mean person. If this belief comes with a certain degree of disgust for me and/or my work my mission would be even nobler.

Ilanit

Two things:
1.A Trojan horse does not need designer clothes.
2. You are after all a Jewish Trojan horse.
Anti-Semites tend to kill Jews but most of the time they have pity on Jewish horses.
You should be thankful that I pointed this out to you.
Next time you run into a pogrom you just say: “Listen carefully, I’m not a Jewish Princess, I’m a Jewish horse.”
Then they will save your life.
This is the proof I can offer you that you are a horse.

duh

Not only you do not want to convince me, you want to emphasise your unwillingness to convince me. I get it, it’s ok. You don’t HAVE to of course.
I just hope that the only possible scenario in my (twisted?) mind in which I could be your Trojan horse is too far fetched. (I guess I will have to wait till November in which I hope to be ridiculously off after reading your articles)

Arnon

I feel bad about my statement. I felt bad thinking it and feel worse having said that. Let me just say: you insisting on calling me a Trojan horse makes me paranoid.

I hate to correct you, Arnon, but Machiavelli is a true man of Renaissance. It's during that period that artists, thinkers and others came to a complete reversal of mediaeval ethics and aesthetics. It is this reversal I consider to be the main charcteristic of Renaissance, Machiavelli also clearly demonstrates this reversal in his writings.

Arnon

A small victory in a discussion is not the same as curing someone. I, by the way, never introduced the term 'human construct'.

None of my friends have such negative opinions on you. I am not sure they have opinions on you at all. Accept for the one who gave me your book, but he was rather positive. I am sure thery would welcome you to their house, though, since they are friendly and pleasant people.

How do you imagine one to go about convincing you that they believe you are a mean person? What kind of proof would be satisfactory?

@Batta

You and Ilanit are the only two persons on this blog who insist on calling Arnon mean. Is this a coïncidence?

Mieke

I’m not sure that I made a statement about Machiavelli that contradicts your statement. Actually I merely quoted him. (Or paraphrased him, but it was very close to the original.)
But your statement about M seems to me utterly unconvincing.
If Machiavelli were just a product of the renaissance he would not be read today.
I’m afraid that you are trying to take away the discomforting parts of his work.
Machiavelli is more and something more complicated than just a product of his time.

Batta

A small victory for one person can be the beginning of a cure for another.
I will be convinced that people truly belief that I’m a mean person when these people come with arguments, when they have a case, when they are ready to let’s say prosecute me.
No opinion is of course worse than a bad opinion.
I sincerely apologize for making you sad about your boyfriend/fiancée – if you need advice how to get him a decent passport you can always come back to me.
The reference to Flaubert of course was a fraud. (After having read the nonsense some people say about Machiavelli I’m not willing to take any risk anymore.)
Are you very unhappy my dear Batta?
And is you boyfriend Sunni or Shi’ite?

Mieke

To set the record straight before I return to my Dirt& Galliano adventure (popping out of the grave was a bad idea since I could have guest the second will prolong and make me a zombie):
1- I never called Arnon mean let alone insisted on calling him that. (he however did referred to me as such in several occasions).
2- There is no connection between me and Batta. Not on this blog and most certainly not in real life. We are lets say probably 180 degrees apart from each other and I’m sure she is as happy about it as I am.
You are a very sweet person though, so any assumption coming from you is forgiven.

Ilanit

Do you object to being a Jew, being a horse or being a Trojan? Or is it the combination that is unpalatable to you?

@Batta, this time it's you who needs a therapist.

Arnon

I accept your apology, although it was not necessary. You did not make me sad about my fiancé. You merely made a nasty comment about our relationship. But this is your own website; you are of course free to make nasty comments.

My fiancé is Muslim, but he does not have much interest in belonging to a specific subset of Islam.

I am not unhappy. Are you?

Batta

Listen, I have not much interest in belonging to a specific Jewish subcategory but I can tell you I’m not a Sephardic Jew, which makes me?
Belonging to a specific subcategory has nothing to do with interest whatsoever. Most of the time it’s just a matter of knowing your history.
Maybe your poor fiancé suffers from amnesia.
My god. After studying your comments I can inform you that you have plenty of reasons to be unhappy.
For your own mental hygiene I urge you to be unhappy.

Arnon

I have never actually asked him, but I know his father goes to the same mosque as his country's most influential religious leader, who is sufi (sunni). I am actually not sure Shia is represented in his country at all. I have never heard a citizen of this country declare himself either sunni or shia, now that I come to think of it. This distinction does not seem a relevant one in this part of the world. Tribal distinctions, on the other hand, are very relevant.

I hate to disappoint you, but am not unhappy. You avoided my question again.

Arnon

what do you want?

My criticism is only aimed at the two words that you link together i.c. middleaged and Machiavelli. So in my mind that means a) he lived in the middleages b) his thoughts were mediaeval.
a) He was born in Florence in 1469. So he grew up at the center from what is called Il Quattrocento, early Renaissance. He published Il Principe in 1513, wich is high Renaissance or Il Cinquecento. So he was a renaissance man, nothing mediaeval at all.
b) In his thought too you can hardly call him middleaged. In Renaissance came an abrupt rupture with mediaeval ethics and aesthetics. F.E.to some thinkers the good man was the man of action , the energetic man who achieved things instead of the mediaeval contemplating, religious man. Machiavelli too attacked middleaged ethics by pointing out that leadership has its own moral. So M. was very much a product of his time, but like all great thinkers he also shaped his time and the time after that. Some of his conclusions are very uncomfortable, even today, especially to the ones of us who had a religious upbringing.
I only wanted to point out that M. isn't MiddleAged.

@ Arnon

Or did I misunderstood you ? You wrote middleaged (as in old) in stead of Middle Ages. I only just noticed that.

Mieke

Exactly I referred to the middle-aged Machiavelli, middle-aged as in: “the period between early adulthood and old age, usually considered as the years from about 45 to 65.”
I might have forgotten the hyphen but within the context of the early Wittgenstein I assume that it was very clear that I was not trying to put Machiavelli in a time machine.

Batta

The way you use language and your dishonesty is something that makes me unhappy.

Arnon

My use of language I cannot help. Your claim that I am dishonest seems to resemble what you yourself called a 'bad opinion'.

Your use of badly argumented insults makes me suspect this conversation is approaching a stalemate situation.

@batta, are you male or female? I'm honestly curious (please note to be male and have a relationship with a male Muslim is perfectly normal in my world -n o judgements intended, just curiosity). If you're a male, then you must also know Omar B.

@ Arnon

I owe you an apology. Usually Wittgenstein is being referred to as Wittgenstein I or Wittgenstein II , but it's Batta who introduced the notion of young Wittgenstein. And of course my limited knowledge of the english language is also to blame.

Ilanit

What I want? What do you want?

Mieke

Your apologies are accepted. I was confused why you were lecturing me on Machiavelli. As the former Secretary of Defense in the US famously remarked: “Stuff happens.”

Batta

If you are not responsible for your use of language who is? God? Allah? Your identity, which is constructed by the military-industrial complex? Your fiancée?
Listen, darling, you convinced me a while ago already that you are no Einstein. Please don’t overdo it.
As to insults: you see insults where a healthy human being who is not suffering from an inferiority complex would see a benign, critical remark.

Noa

Who is Omar B?
Is he a homosexual suicide bomber? Or a country singer from Tunisia? The owner of a famous restaurant in Rotterdam? The founder of a mosque for lesbian and gay Muslims?
Forgive me my ignorance.
Batta is neither a man nor a woman. She is constructed by the military-industrial complex in order to discredit certain liberals and academics.

Arnon

I want to stop doubting the fact that I might have been a Trojan horse. Being paranoid reminds me this one time, years ago, I smoked hash in a club in Manheim. It was terrible.
I want the overdoses on philosophy and philosophers out of my head.
I want to enjoy my virtual death.
I want you to tell me why you keep pushing and pulling.
I want to find a Roberto Cavali dress for a bargain.
I want you to tell me what you want.
And of course, I want to stop smoking and lose at least 5 kilo’s.

When I started readıng Ilanıt, I thought she was a very strong(ly opıonated) person, but now she looks so vurnerable, so fragıle I mıght even lıke her,

Dens

Weakness is not a virtue.

In the anımalkıngdom there's a bırdspecıes that lıkes to pretend ıt's hurt just as a matıng rıtual. I thınk I got some of those genes.

@ Dens

Arnon hasn't realised yet that it are his vulnerable sides which make him so appealing. A female wants her mate to be strong and efficient, at the same time she has a secretive longing to control him. Now I wonder if males have a secretive longing to be dominated.

Dens

I am not sure if you are aware of the difference between like and pity. But if you insist on categorizing people in weak or strong, I will have to disappoint you since reality, experience, myself and the people around me will place me in the second category in your worldview. Just like being courageous will not mean you never experience fear, showing your weaknesses and baring a soft spot does not make you weak in my opinion. At most it shows you’re human. Often times it can even reflect a certain strength. Having that said I will not deny that after placing myself in a vulnerable spot, being as impulsive as I usually am and in addition sensitive to vanity, I start to doubt my impulse. It’s a struggle which in the eyes of some I tend to lose and in the eyes of others I tend to win. But seriously, don’t pity me. I consider myself a fortunate person most of the time and quite a happy one too. We all have our frail moments and we all need them.

Mieke

There is not just one male longing, some males might like to be dominated others not. Some males like pizza, others prefers pasta. Please, try to be specific. otherwise you will end up as Batta.

Arnon, you are right. I should be more specific, but most male constructions about the feminine aren't either. So I'll try to be as specific as I can, I have the secret longing for dominating my males. The question is : Do you have the secretive longing to be dominated by your female? Somehow I think you will leave this question unanswered..

Cultural history

Mieke,
There is connection between your thoughts on the renaissance/middle ages and your opinions about the male/female.
You tend to think in black and white.
I don't feel the need to discuss the male/female theme with you, cultural history would be a more appropriate subject for us to talk about.
To say that the renaissance man is a man of action who rejects contemplation is same as saying an Arab man is smelly who rejects the deodorant.

Mieke and Johannes

All I can add to Mieke’s last comment is that she should start working with horses -- or dogs for that matter. Maybe the profession of snake charmer will bring her peace and happiness.

Johannes

I literaly quoted one Renaissance thinker, his name escapes me for the moment, it was in a course in Renaissance thinkers and he was not the only one to criticize contemplating life. And I do consider that to be a sign of times, a shift in thinking. But in the future I will try to be even more specific.

I was always fascinated by the profession of a snake charmer.

Salutati: " Agli uomini fortissimi, poichè hanno vinto le mostruose fatiche della terra, debitamente siano date le stelle."
The salvation doesn't belong to the people who spend their life doing nothing, it belongs to the creators, who beated the beast of fatigue.
Another very critical one was Bracciolini

@ Johannes

About cultural differences, maybe we can discuss the rise of Rita Verdonck.

Mieke,
That may be true about that renaissance thinker, but it doesn't say anything if you ask me. Shifts in thinking, ruptures, it's not very interesting and impossible to describe history that way. It ends up in generalisms, also faults and in the end the disrespect of unicity.
Please, no Rita Verdonk.
Read Frits Abrahams's column about the recent events. That is all I have to say.
http://weblogs.nrc.nl/weblog/dag/2007/09/14/scenarios/

Mieke

Her name is Verdonk.
But I like the name Verdonck.

@ Johannes

You are allowed to disagree, please feel free to do so, but I was merely quoting an Italian professor with a history degree.

De vita solitaria

Mieke,
Disagree with what exactly?
I only said that you should be careful with easy statements.
And what about the info about the Italian history professor with-no-name? This is really what I like to hear explained.
But if you insist to discuss a litlle bit more, I advise you to read the first part of Thomas More's Utopia.
The choice between the 'vita contemplativa' and 'vita activa', a philosophical theme in humanism indeed, is dramatized by a discussion between different characters of which one is called Morus (Thomas More). This conversation is certainly not a pamphlet for the vita activa, for political action, and it also isn't one to celebrate the vita contemplativa.
And please read this on Petrarch's De vita solitaria.
http://www.hermitary.com/solitude/petrarch.html
If you don't have the time, you can read this quote from the English translator:
'Petrarch's purpose in the De Vita Solitaria is to celebrate the beauty of a life of leisure, retired from crowded haunts and importunate cares and devoted to the enjoyment of reading, of literary creation, peaceful brooding, and the society of a few chosen friends.'

The professor I quoted is Eugenio Garin.
I know Petrarca only from his reputation and I think he deserves an indepth study of his work before commenting.

Petrarch

Mieke,
You don't have to comment on Petrarch, you can comment on what I had to say. C'est ca.
Did I ask you: 'Mieke, what do you think of Petrarch?'
But feel free to do so.

Johannes and Mieke

Help me guys, I lost track of your discussion. What is it about? Exactly?

Discussion

Arnon,
See above.

Even this book from Petrarca can be interpreted as a criticism upon the convent life. If you want a life of leisure instead of praying one should contemplate the beauty of a flower and write a poem about it.
I honestly don't think I made an easy statement.

Consider my previous comment as an easy statement and untrue.