Arnon

IDF is huge and has numerous functions. You should also define what would you like to be there (not that this is going to help you).

@Arnon
Is you appointment with Martin van Creveld also cancelled?

Arnon

Unlike the Darfur refugees who are having hard time staying here in Israel, you, as a Jew, have the wonderful privilege to make Aliya very smoothly. This will open the IDF gates for you. Actually you will have no other choice but to serve your country (of course, you can always try to get pregnant).

Private Arnon

Do you not see the lack of balance between your input and output? Why visit the most obscure and unwelcome places in this world for one's writing, if not because you cannot provide ideas yourself, and are essentially and utterly mediocre? An ennobled journalist?

And now you're announcing you'll join the IDF. Of course, this is to be taken as irony, and a sacrifice in the service of your writing. But in truth, it is your destiny, and there is no irony but only tragedy here. You are not a writer, but a soldier and a Jew, and you will now fulfill your obligation, which is not to criticize or contest society and its institutions, but to defend them.

linking your comment to your website makes me think there is a bit of jealousy here. We cannot all be Arnon, that is a fact lof life.
Meanwhile, keep trying, and if you have absolutely nothing to do, just barf on this site.

Margot

The link is a mere courtesy, and good blogging pratice at that. Besides, I have nothing to hide.

You are sadly mistaken if you think that I would be envious of AG's writing or of any of what he represents. Of course, I understand your concern: what will you do when your master, he who makes you "very happy", he who "forgives", is taken away from his pedestal? Who will you follow? Me? But I don't want you, not even if you would pay me. Unlike you, I don't dream of being a prostitute.

Also, I am not a novelist. Moreover, I would feel very uncomfortable with AG's Erfolg. Do you know the percentage of idiots in any given large group? Just look around in this little congregation here with its 'Judas's', 'Oscar Wildes', 'Noa's', and 'Margots'.

If you don't dream of being a prostitute, then what are you doing here?

@ Arnon

I once had a bodysearch performed on me, in Israël , by someone who could be your twin brother. Maybe you can track him down and replace him. If you do join the army, don't forget to provide us with a mailbox, my home knitted socks and scarfs will comfort you.

Arnon - With no realtion to the above topic

i just spoke with Jonathan Nadav. He said that the translation is completed but that the Dutch institution is now holding it from being further processed (proof-readinf etc.) They have their own regulations and now their man (or woman) has to approve the translation. He said he believes the 'De asielzoeker' will be be published between two to four months from now.

@RC

You seem to be feeling very comfortable amidst the erfolg yourself. That's one thing you master - projection. Everything you say about others, says even more about yourself.
By the way, all erfolgers are equal, but some erfolgers are more equal than the rest. My name could well be both Margot, and Noa, Oscar Wilde and Judas. I may even be Arnon, who's to know?

Neria

Thanks! Very kind of you to make this phone call.

Jan T

Yes, appointment with Martin van C has been postponed.

Noa

Erfolg is a German noun and can be translated as “success” or “well-being” or “affluence.” Not to be confused with the word “follower.” (Anhänger/ Verfolger)

Arnon

Graag gedaan :)
i think though that he thinks i'm a nudge (like many others think), so i hope i didn't spoil anything between you two. There was nothing aggressive in that call, he was surprised though that i phoned on your behalf. It was merely informative (i didn't know how things really work. Now i know, so actually, thank you - i learned something).

Madame Margot said:

"If you don't dream of being a prostitute, then what are you doing here?"

Well, Margot, you might say I'm on a mission. See John 2,13-22 for any details.

Neria

What do you mean with a nudge exactly?
How can somebody be a nudge?

@RH CdG

Do you intend to chase us from this temple? Or do you intend to destroy it , so you can resurrect it in three days?

Mr Carrot

Are you on a mission to find yourself an audience?

Arnon

It has nothing to do with you (apart from the fact that you Wrote the book i wanted to translate). We kept a correspondence regarding the proof translation and he told me that Dan is abroad and will be back only by the end of the month, and will be too busy to immediately read it. He said that i shouldn't expect any answer before December and just said that i should be patient and that it will take its time. In the meantime i managed to refine the translation so many times and added more pages to it, i sent him the more or less last version i had and asked him to please deliver it to Dan, which he emailed me he did.

i'm sorry, but i will not answer you fully now as to how one can become a nudge. Apart from being a professional nietsnut i am also a professional nudge, usually to myself. Anyway, in the blog today i see i have competitors. We're all pained. For some reason i'm filled with compassion right now.

i'm going back to 'De asielzoeker'. It tears my heart.

Arnon

Eh, i didn't complete my Jonathan's explanation. i was afraid he will find me a nudge because today i called again (though i told him it is not on my behalf), and it was before i've got their answer. i think they might stick to the same It might take two weeks before i'll hold it in my hands. From not liking the Hebrew title i can't learn anything.

Arnon

A whole sentence disappeared somehow. But those were mere trifles.

Arnon

Gee, it's not. i think they will stick to the same translator. i have ordered the Hebrew version of "De geschiedenis van mijn kaalheid" only last night. It will take some time before i will be able to read it.

Arnon

Ok. i just read your sentence: "Wij kunnen nauwelijks onze eigen pijn voelen, laat staan die van anderen". i think that when my pain threatens to assert itself i can become a nudge by trying to silence it with lots of activities which their only aim is to push the pain down. It is very tiring and consuming. If i run to people so they will hold my pain they very quickly become overburdened (especially when they have their own share of pain they are struggling with). So in this interaction, i very quickly can leave the impression of a nudge. It can also be my own exaggerated feeling: i may feel a burden because i was a real burden to my parents and never had the chance to feel otherwise about myself.

i can go on and on with it but i need some time for myself . If you feel that you still need me to elaborate on this subject - i will.

Neria

This is what the dictionary has to say about nudge:
a light touch or push : he gave her shoulder a nudge | figurative she appreciated the nudge to her memory.
What do you have to say about nudge?
Take your time regarding the baldness. I trust the publisher Bavel completely. It was just sheer curiosity.
I don’t think I’m interested in alyah by the way. My sister moved to Israel in 82. She has seven children and lives on the West Bank in a settlement.
When I spoke about her in an interview with Ma’ariv earlier this year, she was quite upset.
At least that's what my mother told me.

Arnon

Oy vey, oy vey, oy vey, today is an oy vey day.

This is a very weird situation: on the one hand i have your novel, which as i told you before, is tearing my heart. It is so painful that i can't really take big hapjes from it. The reading might take too long. Since i fear that every day now i might find a job (and have to leave the novel behind for a long time) i actually take Ritalin so i would be able to hold on to the text longer than what would my overwhelmed system allow. On the other hand your questions are very intriguing and i'm drawn to answer them fully. So i'm torn between you and you.

adj./n. 'nudnik', nagger, fidget, pesterer - nigesse (in Yiddish) - This is what i ment by 'nudge'. i guess we twist words in the family.

i only teased you with my suggestion for you to make aliya, espacially because you asked me why didn't i serve my country. i thought it was funny you couldn't turn to an army psychiaterist in order to flee from the army because Ilanit will be ashamed of you, plus he might have given you some very stupid tips like to fax your impressions over the army from Givatayim.

i also have one sister who lives in a settlement. Basically i live in Jerusalem in an area that can be named a settlement too. i could have lived a more moral life had i not been so poor. i am a whiner, i know. i just can't bring myself to read 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' - for this there's not enough Ritalin in the world ;)))

De Profundis

If it was an audience I was after, my aim would not be to win one for myself, but to deprive AG of his. I know, however, that even when fully exposed he will still be dragging the likes of you after him.

As for the carrot, I'll tell you what. Every time you write it down in reference to me, there is a sudden pain in your rectum. The feeling is not altoghether unpleasant; in fact, it is quite likeable. It is me, your carrot. You must now relax in order to fully accept.

Neria

Nudnik of course, but a nudnik is a nudnik not a nudge.
A while ago a Swiss newspaper asked me to name my favorite word in Yiddish. I found this a rather bizarre but innocent request.
How many children does your sister have?

Arnon

i will never ever in my life again mistake 'nudnik' for a 'nudge' .

So what was the word you chose?

Four.

Neria

Basically I argued that it is a chutzpah to ask such a question.
Can you imagine asking an Italian writer what’s your favorite Italian word or asking Don Juan what is his favorite woman for that matter.
Is your sister fairly religious? Is her hair covered, and if so could you describe the object with which she usually covers her hair?

Arnon

Why is this a 'hutspa' question for you? It is simply a populistic question. It reminds me of trying to maintain love with sms's. Sometimes though, in order to express it you end up being a poet. I would feel more depressed than annoyed by such question.

i think that it is enough that i'm giving this peep show for almost a week. Since i'm so used to correspond heavily, and since the format is very much the same, i keep forgetting that people whom i do not want to invite into my life are getting a chance to have a glimpse over them. i thought that i am willing to pay the pound of flesh, namely sharing some details over my life here, because i found it the right platform to spread the A.M. and A.J.'s gospel.
Truly, i do enjoy exchanging thoughts and feelings with people on this site but i think that whether i politically agree with my family or not, i must protect their privacy.

If you are willing to give your word and to respect their privacy too i will share with you such details via Johannes. If anybody else on this site is interested in retrieving details over my very boring private life then she or he, just as Noa Fenenga did, are invited to give me an email address and i will do my best to satisfy their (and my) need in a closer contact.

Mr Carrot

I appreciate your familiarity with my work.
Between your fondue fantasy and your carrot fantasy, Mr Tas probably won't need much time to come up with a proper diagnosis.
If you like, you can be my Lord Queensberry and present me with a bouquet of carrots and turnips.

Oscar W

What do you think of me giving a reading from “The Jewish Messiah” in your apartment (or house) somewhere this winter?
I’ll bring wine, if you invite some friends and readers. I promise you I won’t touch Laura. My astrologer told me this afternoon that I cannot touch Laura before November 9, 2008. I tend to follow up on his advice.

Arnon

We would be delighted to have you over.
If you bring wine, Laura will take care of the hors d'oeuvres.

Arnon

So i didn't understand if you chose one word (because one cannot place an innocent question and be a hutspan at the same time) or not.

Neria

To ask a group of Jewish writers to name their favorite Yiddish word is in my modest opinion a chutzpah.
I don’t know what kind of further explanation you would like to receive. The chutzpah starts with the assumption that a Jew speaks Yiddish. To some Jews this will come as an insult. Of course this has also to do with class warfare, to a certain degree at least.

Oscar W

Is it going to be a threesome or should I expect other guests as well?

Arnon

Believe me, i know that already. i came back to this question only because you wrote: I found this a rather bizarre but innocent request. Once it's innocent, it cannot be chutspa.

Neria

Maybe I misunderstood your question, yes I chose the word chutzpah for the reasons mentioned above. The editor at the Swiss newspaper never got back to me. I'll send him a mail to find out what's going on there.

Arnon

i forgot to put your line between inverted commas, but you'll be able to recognize it.

Arnon

;)))))) i dhould have guessed. I thought you didn't answer because you found it a 'chutspa' to ask the question in the first place. i didn't realize you chose 'chutspa' as the word...

Arnon

i would choose 'gelipte'.

Arnon

So where were you born? At waht date? And what was the exact time? (or is this a chutspa to ask?)

Violation

Neria, I assume you live in East Jerusalem. How does it feel to be part of such a shameless violation of international law?

Batta

i don't. i live in the south but had friends from Abu-Dis (East Jerusalem,also where you can get cigarettes for third of their price 500 meter away. When i was still smoking i was shocked at the differences). It doesn't matter much if you live in the States or in Europe or in Israel, for that matter. If you do not live 100% of your time a poloitical life then you are a violator. How does it feel? Normal, i guess. i do of course vote for left wing prime ministers and as a rule, always to the Arab-Communist party but when conversing with my Arab-Israeli colleagues they spit on the Israeli arab leaders; probably they know something i don't.
i am poor and i use this explanation as a cover for not living a more virtuous life. My sweetheart on the other hand is involved in political and social activities and contributes both money, his many skills and time to various charity causes, but, on the other hand make businesses with the Chinese, something i'm very opposed to.
i have no idea where do you live and what do you do for living, so i can't ask you the same question.
i really dislike my previous therapyst, whom i regard as a swindler but she once said something that i do not forget, she said: "you can't take care of all the cats in the world", and ever since, i stopped attempting doing so. i only do what i can.

@Neria, interesting and fair because honest.
@Batta, what steps are you taking to change the situation you feel is injust?
No judgement, I'm simply interested.

Neria

An innocent question can be a chutzpah.
I was born in Amsterdam on 2-22-71. I believe at 10:15 PM or 09:45 PM.

Arnon

Thanks.

Arnon

So long 'innocence' is another word for unconsciousness i agree with you.

Batta

International law is a meaningless concept. And the adjective shameless in connection with violation is something that diplomats tend to utter at the beginning of a cocktail party.
Even if we would take international law seriously, I don’t think there is an international law that prohibits citizens of any country to live in another country. And I will make sure that this poor Neria, who is on the verge of becoming a Palestinian herself and if not a Palestinian the next Vanunu can live anywhere in the world including East-Jerusalem, West-Berlin, Helsinki, and Kabul without violating international law. That’s my task in life as of today.
All outrage is selective and blind on one eye, that’s not the problem -- but if you really feel the urge to be outraged try to be a little bit more original.
Too many people have been outraged in the name of Palestinians and Israelis.
And what did all this outrage produce? Happy activists, lots of NGO’s, lots of sex before and after the outrage, and lots and lots of paper.

Arnon

You qualify international law as meaningless. Such cynicism is not very original either.

I did not state that Neria was herself single-handedly violating international law; I stated that she is *part* of such a violation (by living in a settlement). And I do believe that this violation is shameless, as I am not a cynic.

Let poor Neria live wherever she pleases. I was triggered by the careless way in which she declared to live in (something similar to) a settlement in the West Bank.

What has cynicism produced exactly?

Noa

Not every one has the power to change a situation that is unjust. Not every one can be a hero, but the least one can do is not to support such overt injustice (which seemed to be the case when I made that remark).

I agree with Arnon that there are enough activists for the Palestinians. There are parts of the world where there are not enough activists.

I think there is always more one can do. I have many discussions about this with my fiancée, who I often blame for not doing more. I don't know when one can say one is doing enough. But I don't think I will ever think of myself as doing enough.

I am reading (and very much enjoying) Hannah Arendt these days.

Batta

There is a distinction between realism and cynicism, but it’s an old habit to disqualify certain truths as merely cynical statements.
But if you really insist, some, especially the believers in international law I’m afraid, would qualify Cioran as a cynical thinker, so cynicism have given us Cioran.
Don’t take it too personal, if it makes you happy to be enraged and to utter the language diplomats utter before the wine is being opened, be my guest.
I you wish to believe in international law; be my guest again. Many decent people believe in god. I hope the same can be said about the believers in international law.
Speaking about settlements, almost all of the US would qualify as a settlement. In my next life I hope to return as an indigenous American.
From the point of view of animals all human beings are settlers.
This is not to say that I’m in favor of the settlement-movement in Israel, quite the opposite my dear.
The gauche caviar is just sometimes so tiresome, especially when the gauche caviar becomes pompous and self-important.

Batta

I’m believe the right to remain indifferent is a human right.
Catastrophes are born out of people who thought they must do something and they didn’t think about the consequences.
If you want to do something read a book.
If your fiancée wants to help people, why doesn’t he help me?
Does he think I don’t need any help?
On what basis did he come to that conclusion?

All you guys are not reading carefully

i don't live in a settlement, i wrote that it is a part of jerusalem that may be named a settlement. Many will argue about it.

i'm not a Va'anunu. In the first place i wouldn't choose to work in such place unless it was in Springfield.

Since Isarel is already a 60 years fact, i don't argue about its legitimacy. You've got me wrong about that. I'm only saying that in the name of this legitimacy one cannot shut the eyes to many injustices (not of very different nature from those of many other countries have to deel with) that take place there.

Arnon, i'm trying to symplify one fragment from your reply to my own words and please correct me if i'm wrong. Did you say that i'm allowed to live anywhere i wish?

i hope you can read through my bad English

(proficiency is certainly not my best trait [or is this a painful remark, Arnon, you don't wish to read?]).

Neria

You are allowed to live anywhere you wish except in my apartment. And now be silent for 24 hours. This site should not become your addiction. We have enough substance abusers already.

Arnon

The discussion is about the Israeli settlements in the West Bank. There is no need to state that the US can be seen as a settlement. I believe there was no international law back in those days.

It is also an old trick to equate cynicism with realism. I am not afraid to say that I believe in progress, although I know I may be wrong. If indifference is to be considered a human right, you have just turned into an activist.

In the end it is somehow a matter of taste / aesthetics (this is also how I understand some parts of Wittgenstein’s work) Indifference may not be wrong, but to me it is somehow ugly.

Do you need help? In what area do you need help?

Arnon

i think that you have to make your visitors sign an agreement where they promise to hold their tongues if they are poor and pained before ever dreaming of sending a post.

This is not going to be 24 hrs silence but a goodbye.

Ilanit, hashetach shelach.

Batta

There was no international law back then? Okay. So we should not consider the genocide of the Indians especially in South America genocide because there was no international law back then? You really should try to become a diplomat as soon as possible because the diplomatic language, before opening the first bottle of wine at cocktail party's that is, is in your bones.
And the discussion was not about settlements on the West Bank. It was about poor Neria who happens to live in East-Jerusalem, and whom you attacked with words like “shameless violation” etcetera.
By the way do you know that it is not a violation of international law that this woman in Saudi-Arabia will receive 200 lashes because she was raped, or to be more precise because she was in the presence of a man with whom she was not married while she was being raped?
Your illusion that you are not indifferent is sign of ignorance. Or do you think that stating here that you are against the settlements on the West Bank is a clear sign of not being indifferent? Hello baby, I think all visitors of thise site including me believe that these settlements have to go eventually.
It’s not up to you to decide what is cynicism and what not. You dislike an opinion -- you call it cynicism, that’s worse than an old trick, that’s boring.
That’s the problem with the gauche caviar, not only are many of them ignorant –
they are utterly boring. (Not that the rights is any better, but at least sometimes more honest about their true intentions.)
If I need help? I need help. Lots of help. But with friends like you, you don’t need enemies. Send me your fiancée. He might be more helpful.

Arnon

Look, you are purposely misinterpreting my words, which is making this discussion a very boring one indeed.

Of course I do not think the killing of indigenous people in the Americas (or in Africa or Asia for that matter) was righteous, because there was no international law. I merely pointed out that it was beside the discussion. The example of the woman in Saudia is yet another way you are diverting the discussion. (and now you will say it is gauche caviar to dismiss examples because they don’t fit the discussion, like their discussion is more important than such events )

I am not indifferent and I am not ignorant. I don’t need an Arnon Grunberg certificate of approval.

I think you won’t be happy until you have stripped the whole world of its meaning. You are horrible. Why would I want to introduce my fiancée to you?

Have you never been outraged by someone’s utterance?

International law back in those days

@Batta, there may not have been documented international law, but certainly there were human rights. Even if these were not in writing, they existed.
Obviously one could argue whether the declaration of universal human rights is but a western construct, still, I believe certain basic values bind all of humanity, despite (or even because of) religion or race.
Even back then.

Equal rights between all humans - man or woman -being one of them. Stand tall batta, you are a woman. Without you, man would not exist.

Post Scriptum: as I tend to be too implicit and have been minuderstood here before, let me explain: with that last comment I meant to say - without woman, man would not exist, nor would wars and nor would the Palestine issue. That having been said batta, you are well able to do something about the situation and about acting against the violence of human rights/international law by starting closer to home: wmen's rights., including your own. It seems Arnon is in part implicitly arguing the same by referring to the beating of this poor Saoudi woman, which I'm sure you comdemn.

Batta

A law that cannot be enforced is at the end a non-existing law. To state that international law is meaningless is I’m afraid not a very cynical remark.
I hate to sound like a Republican presidential candidate but I do think that the UN is a fairly ineffective and fairly hypocritical debating club.
But it is good against unemployment among academics. So let it live till the next big war.
I don’t like moral outrage, especially not moral outrage on behalf of others. And for the record I never said that people should be indifferent, I just said that to expect otherwise is maybe not very realistic.
In Friday’s NRC Handelsblad there was an interview with John Gray, worth reading I believe, well Gray himself more so than the interview of course.

@Noa

Do you really think more woman rights will prevent human disasters like the Israeli-Palestininan conflict in the future? This doesn't mean I am against more female rights, but to me it should sound like we have the fundamental right to make the same mistakes. I think that is being far more realistic.

@Mieke, isn't that the very quality of women? That we learn from our mistakes and understand that not everything in life is a competition ie, about being smarter or stronger or having the most admirors or wives or power or money or...

@ Noa

I agree with you. Most woman are far less competitve than man, but the ones that aim for the top are most often forced to use the same methods of men and are by consequence not better than men.

Arnon

I think we don’t disagree as much as it may seem.

Every law is just a piece of paper as long as it is not practiced. I believe you are right that the UN Security Council has not been particularly effective in practicing international law. The same can be said of the UN system as a whole. When I worked for them, I was surprised by the extent to which it is somehow a kind of club people wanted to belong to. From the perspective of (what is often referred to by Expats with the slightly degrading term) “local” people, there was not much difference between the UN staff, living in their huge houses in the better-serviced areas, and the former Colonialists.

An imperfect system, but at the moment it’s the only thing we have. I guess the difference is that I believe it can be changed, while you seem to want to leave it “till the next big war”. I am not very familiar with John Grey’s work, but I will look into it.

Sorry I called you horrible.

Mieke and Noa

Maybe women are less competitive than men, but how do we measure being competitive?
And I would say that being competitive is a survival tool, and should by no means being discarded as negative and useless.

Batta

The fact that it is the only thing we have should not prevent us from criticizing this thing.
Some people claim that God is the only thing we have so we cannot criticize him -- others say this about the UN.
You can call me names.

@ Arnon

If competiton is a tool wich makes you perform better, than there is something to say in its favor, but somehow personally I always had difficulties facing competition. it never made me perform better, at the contrary ,being confonted with the eager of my adversary to win, I let him win, even though I am a perfectionist who wants to perform to her best .

Arnon

Of course you can criticize the UN. But would you agree that such criticism should go beyond calling the UN an ineffective debating club. I mean, it's witty and everthing, but... continue: what do you think is making it ineffective? What is lacking for these debates to actually lead to changes?

(you don't need to answer these questions, my point is: the discussion doesn't end by calling something ineffective debating club, just as it doesn't end with calling something a shameless violation, as I guess was your point before)

What do you find interesting about John Grey?

Batta

That the UN is ineffective is an opinion most people can agree with. I would say it’s slightly more than an opinion. It’s almost a fact.
A debating club it is not, people get salaries at the UN, at the average debating club the contenders get flowers at best.
There are many reasons why it is ineffective. Practical reasons; it’s a huge bureaucracy – and less practical reasons; it would like to serve many interests at the same time.
I cannot think of a disaster the UN helped to prevent.
But yes, let it live, the intentions on which it was founded after World War II were probably good.
Gray’s anti-utopianism struck me as healthy. (I still have to read his book by the way, so I cannot make more profound statements. Whether I can make more profound statements after heaving read his book needs to be seen of course.)

Mieke

This is called fear of failure.

I have never gotten flowers for taking part in a debate. Alcohol-free apple cider is the best I ever did.

The UN is indeed a huge bureaucracy. And the people working there are bureaucrats. I was really struck by the disenchantment, when I worked there. Suffering, refugees and disaster have all become a matter of filling out forms and using an extensive collection of stamps. Weber thought this is a by-product of any bureaucracy.

That you cannot think of a disaster that the UN prevented, may be due to the fact that disasters that did not occur cannot be remembered.

For me, the question if the UN can be effective comes down to a question of collective action. The security council has thus far not succeeded in ending a conflict in my fiancée’s country. This is because some countries will not give up their economic interests. And why would they? I think as long as we cannot answer this question, the UN won’t become effective.

John Gray predicts an increase in wars over natural resources. I would like to know how he explains this expected increase, as it is something I have also studied.

@Batta/Arnon
The downfall of every organization starts when collective interest becomes a career, ie a vehicle for self interest. Poitning at bureacracy is too eay and a nobrainer. Greenpeace is also bureucratic even though it's an NGO.
Most UN employees I met while working there (batta - you see, we do share a common interest) were mainly concerned with their own positions and benefits. The few remaining idealists, who luckily were still the ones who made it to the top positions of under-SG, did initiate great schemes and plans (such as the DHA that 10 years ago planned to become coordinator of all humanitarian aid in the field. Unfortunately, these plans were drowned by the very subagencies of the UN itself and NGO's not wanting to join forces for fear of losing mandate, budget and power. Ie; self interest). It's the same with women's rights (women's rights have become a career and are ultimately all about the Self) by the way, but that's a discussion for some other time.
However, pinpointing the problems we all already know is easy, boring and does not change a thing. A discussion on how an institution such as the UN could actually become effective is more interesting to me. Ie - how to erradicate selfinterest, if at all possible. The groundworks are there, it would be a waste if we were to blow it up instead of look to a new approach in this post coldwar era. Even if it's sole goal and function becomes for example the environment, that would be a step in the right direction.
I wish someone like Clinton (either Hilary or Bill) was to become SG and understand there;s a lot of terrirtory to be gained. If anything, the UN could potentially become a global thinktank.
That having been said Arnon - the talk of diplomats you say Batta is guilty of, yes, very superficial indeed. Still, the groundworks are there, what would happen if nobody was to 'talk' at all anymore. Moreover, getting rid of institutions like the UN would only serve to get rid of multilateral politics, ie: the diplomatic blah blah you hate will then become even more important within a bilateral context.
Finally, there's nothing wrong with social grace. At all. Undutch yourself Arnon, refinement is quite liberating.

PS - as I've been out of my Noa character for quite some time now, it's only fair to say that Noa = Aliefka. I'm not using my own name for the pure and simple reason that the name Aliefka is the only Aliefka around (if anyone here knows another Aliefka, I'd like to meet her...) and google would show 30,000 references to Arnon Grunberg if anyone were to ever google Aliefka. I said IF.

Noa

Read my comments carefully; I pointed out that in my opinion an organization like the UN is never going to be effective. It was tried after World War I, it failed, it has been tried again, and… yes, let’s keep it alive. If for no other reason than that we help a few academics staying out of the dark corners of unemployment.
I never said that bureaucracy is the only reason for the failure of the UN. And by the way how effective is Greenpeace? Yes, it has become a brand name. Marlboro is a brand name as well, and although a bureaucracy in itself, much more effective than Greenpeace. The tobacco-lobby is still quite powerful, despite some setbacks.
I’m not sure what you mean with social grace – if you think that diplomatic chit-chat is a fine example of social grace you might as well state that Donald Duck is more interesting than Dostoevsky – in which case you better stick with Donald Duck.
And please, don’t generalize, if you feel bad about having a Dutch passport or living in the Netherlands, solve the problem by emigrating, but don’t fall in the trap of projection.
A global think-tank? And what’s the global think-tank going to produce you think?
Just name one innovation or discovery coming out of a global think-tank. Maybe you consider diplomatic chit-chat a profound discovery. In which case we can expect a lot from global think-tanks.

Arnon, I do not consider diplomatic chit chat a profound discovery at all, I've told you this before. But social grace in general does have its merits. If anything, it makes people feel comfortable, welcome and at ease. And why not? Why must everything be so aggressive or about who's right and the smartest? Why must everyone be undressed and exposed? What does that bring to the world? Honestly, I'd like to know?
Personally, I like to look at people with their clothes on (metaphorically speaking), often I can guess what they look like beneath them and simply knowing that for myself is enough. I don't feel the need to strip them and put them in front of a laughing mirror. That's where love ends and wars start.
And I mentioned Greenpeace for exactly that reason: its ineffectivity. I was drawing a parallel. But let's not get into word games, please.
I

Noa

I consider myself a polite human being. And I do think I understand the importance of politeness.
But at the time I don’t think that politeness should interfere with a quest for truth during a small discussion on a site like this.
Having said this: I don’t believe that I’m overly aggressive here.
It may be an old-fashioned idea, but in my opinion the art of the novel is connected to the quest for truth. If we don’t believe in exposing things (i.e. truth) than there is no base for ethics anymore, and for that reason the base of esthetics has vanished as well, because they are connected.
So to answer your question: I expose things from time to time because of both ethical and esthetical reasons, for a pleasant pastime we have the Macy’s, Saks on Fifth Avenue etcetera.
And yes everything is competition, but there is also a competition in politeness. Who knows, you will be the winner of that contest.

Well then, perhaps I'll finally be a winner. Although I'm not sure I'd win that prize if an objective referee were to study my previous comments. I'm simply arguing a position here. This is not synonymous to me defending myself. I myself am obviously ambivalent, Perhaps Christmas is getting to me and I find myself longing for peace and harmony, love and happiness for a change, instead of seek the path of confrontation (which I have previously done here). You yourself are quite ambivalent. This is in fact one of the main qualities I appreciate in you. Surely, you are well aware there is no such thing as an objective truth. In fact, your writing to me is especially grand as it exposes a variety of truths that may even seemingly contradict each other. Anyway, it's nice to know you have the impression that politeness is the very core of my being. I'd like to keep it that way and hope you don't change your mind along the line.
Have you read The Fountainhead yet?

Noa

I did not manage to make much sense of your comments on the UN. The revelation of your identity did not help.

Noa

Truth is a problematic concept -- nevertheless it should not be avoided altogether.
Confrontation does not exclude love, as aggression does not exclude love by definition.
I’m not sure if love is really connected to harmony. And if you are looking for harmony and you don’t find it here just go somewhere else. That is the pleasant thing about books, you can stop reading them, movies, you can leave the theater, sites, you go always to yahoo; in other words it is not in your face. And in my modest opinion discussions on this site have remained civilized, apart from a few exceptions.
Please, don’t hide behind Christmas.

@Arnon, I reacted to your comment earlier on and it seems to not have come through. It's just as well, really. I'm no longer sure about what to say. Except for there is not one objective truth (and this statement I connected to ambivalence and you and why I respect your work and why I'm may not win the polite medal etc. but why on earth am I getting into this kind of lost battle with you. Right now, I just want to be in peace with you.)

@Batta, could you explain what you did not understand? Was it the concept of selfinterest over collective interest? Surely, this is not a very difficult issue to grasp, even though it's not as easy as saying institutions such as the UN are 'so bureaucratic and corrupt.' I am in your camp by the way batta, have you noticed?
And saying who I am (who are you Batta and what department/agency were you with at the UN?) did not have anything to do with my comment regarding the UN, simply with transparency and fairness.

@Arnon, you're not really getting my point so I must not be making myself clear.
Me simply not being very good at winter and Christmas, doesn't mean I'm hiding behind it by the way. Bye then, until we meet again. I've outstayed my welcome. Partir c'est mourir un peu (right Ilanit and Neria?)

Noa

You are slightly melodramatic.
Anybody is welcome to comment here, so it’s hard for me to see how you can have overstayed your welcome.

Arnon

"[A]ggression does not exclude love by definition" - please give an example .

Aliefka

Aangenaam :)

Veel succes!