2007/12/09 Dublin
Atheist
Compassion
I never was a big supporter of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
First of all she had surrounded herself with the wrong advisers.
Besides that I didn’t like joining an army against God -- too much honor for the Almighty.
And last but not least I doubted if her methods were very effective.
But in today’s IHT Mrs. Hirsi Ali wrote an op-ed piece, which is reasonable:
“If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?”
When she attacks Saudi Arabia for some of its (Islamic) laws she is right. These laws are by most standards abhorrent.
But she forgets the strategic importance of Saudi Arabia.
Oil remains oil and for that reason we are more than willing to postpone our opinions about abhorrent laws indefinitely.
On a slightly different note I wonder what Mrs. Hirshi Ali has to say about Mr. Romney’s (for readers outside the US; a leading presidential candidate for the Republican party) refusal to say whether there is place in the US for atheists.
I’m afraid that Mrs. Hirsi Ali is on the losing side of the culture war. To win a war you need more than the conviction that your cause is just. You need a strategy and you need to understand that people might join your fight for various reasons and might drop you and your cause when it’s convenient for them.
[ Add comment ]
42 comments 
Your article is a nice summary of what we all face: we like to nurse our convictions and we like to win the battle. Maybe winning the battle is always temporary, in the end we all lose, we all die. But then should we avoid all battle? On the other hand, what is the value of our convictions? Do moral convictions make us to what we are? I am afraid this is a life time quest and struggle.
Jan T
Some claim that selfish genes make us who we are.But then even selfish genes have to cooperate (sometimes a lot), although I am not a biologist.
No Compassion
"When she attacks Saudi Arabia for some of its (Islamic) laws she is right. These laws are by most standards abhorrent."Dear Arnon,
I regret to say that your writing is about the sloppiest writing I have come across in a long time.
"She is right" - who are you to say who or what is right? I assume it originates from the same source that endows you with the power to forgive and make everybody very happy?
"Most standards" - Is being right the result of a statistical survey of moral standards? This would contradict your exclusive right to grant moral rights and wrongs to people's expressions.
"Abhorrent" - How do you envision abhorred standards? Do they throw up over your shoes?
Like you said a while ago, and over and over again before that: it is not a bad thing to have no talent or not to be recognized. Nor is it an especially good thing to have talent and be recognized. What is abhorrent to *my* standards is to let one's talent deteriorate into arrogance and stupidity.
Arnon
I've never thought Hirsi Ali 'fought' in a smart or effective way. The problem is that Islam-'fighthers' never do.Shouldn't it be 'Ms.' Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
Coen
I have been taught that it is congenial to refer to a woman who is of an age as Mrs. --whether she is actually married or not. But if you have other information, please let me know. As to the rest of your comment: I’m not sure if I understand your point. What is your point?Mr. Grunberg
I have been taught the same by my mother.At a certain age some women may experience it as insulting to be titled Ms. instead of Mrs.
Mr. Grunberg
I have been taught the same by my mother.Some women may experience it as insulting to be titled Ms. instead of Mrs. at a certain age.
Arnon,
I have been thaught that Mrs only can be used for married women. But, also reading the reaction of Anna M., Mrs for women of a certain age is also very reasonable.I was refering to you opening sentence: ‘I never was a big supporter of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.’, and the upfollowing phrase ‘And last but not least I doubted if her methods were very effective.’
I’ve never been a big fan of Ali either, and I’m still not. People like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ehsan Jami and Geert Wilders, ‘Islam fighters’, indeed have not effective methods to fight God. People have to believe in your disbelieve, otherwise you stand alone. But, to be honest, from the three people above, Hirsi Ali is the most reasonable one. Maybe it’s better not to fight at all.
Coen
Until further notice let’s see agree that it is appropriate to address a woman over the age of 25 as Mrs.There is quite a difference between Mr. Wilders and Mrs. Hirsi Ali. But it I agree that it is a blurry line between legitimate concerns about certain religious practices and racism.
Nevertheless if we are concerned about violence in the name of democracy, as some of us are, we should be equally concerned about violence in the name of god.
Probably the anarchists in the early twentieth century were godless terrorists, at least some of then, nowadays the godless terrorist has become extinct.
One thing is for sure: if you want to offend a certain group of people offend the atheists, they will keep their mouths shut.
Maybe they are invulnerable
"One thing is for sure: if you want to offend a certain group of people offend the atheists, they will keep their mouths shut."
This seems to suggest that atheists have nothing to defend or be concerned about. This is not true. They have their disbelief to believe in. The only difference with formally religious people is that their hatred is less conspicuous.
Jan Thys, it is certainly not our moral convictions that make us who we are. They are merely excuses for our failures.
This seems to suggest that atheists have nothing to defend or be concerned about. This is not true. They have their disbelief to believe in. The only difference with formally religious people is that their hatred is less conspicuous.
Jan Thys, it is certainly not our moral convictions that make us who we are. They are merely excuses for our failures.
Ayaan should read Il Principe.
RHCdG
Were you on a holiday?RH
Are you aware of the fact that it doesn`t make sense to believe in your disbelief?David
I am never on holiday. I slumber, like a recurring nightmare.Manon
How right you are!Tell me, did it take you long to figure out?
RHCdG
You seem more relaxed.Do you have medication?
rhcdg
You're begging the question. Defense does not equal hatred - at least not in my world view. It does in yours, apparently, which does not surprise me.But you're right, atheists and theists defend different truths. Thanks for pointing that out. Captain obvious to the rescue!
David
If you had something to say you would have already said it. Unfortunately, all you have are rehashes of what you believe are witticisms. Nevertheless, you are interested in seeing if they might outsmart me when you yourself are unable to. This is very sad. All the more so because unlike our host, I don't forgive.And all you really wanted was your mom to give you some attention. Why don't you give her a call?
Tjitze
Hatred is not my deal, nor is defense. There is no need to hate what one rejects, or to defend what can take care of itself.Good for you to recognize that I am right, though. It's something you cannot get used to quickly enough.
rhcdg
You failed.RHCdG
I am not trying to be witty.So once again, do you take medication?
And also please tell who you consider to be a better writer: you or your father.
politics and soccer
Most politicians are like soccer players, hoping to score and crowds to cheer them. Scoring points, winning a 90 minute game,. That goes for Mr. Wilders and ms/mrs Hirschi Ali. If they don't score there is always the next game. Realism, long term thinking and a vision, good or bad in politics is rare.blessed is the country with boring politicians.
David
What kind of mediciation do you suggest?The kind that would protect me from me, me from you, or you from me?
Are you familiar with my father's work? Which books did you read?
Tjitze
I am afraid our criteria for failure and success are not aligned. It gives me great satisfaction to fail before you.RHCdG
Answer my questions.Arnon
Yes, I think the atheists are invulnerable in a certain way. When one offend a group of Muslims, Christians, etc, they will not take it personally, but they’ll see it as an offend to their God. And that’s the problem with atheists. They don’t have a God, they have nothing. So until we can offend nothing, it is safe to offend the atheists.Are there moderate atheists and radical atheists? If so, there sure are groups against it, groups we can offend.
Today it’s not the time to be invulnerable.
David
Alright, here is your answer to both questions: I am a body without organs.RHCdG
My advice to you is some medication that calms you down.About your father, did you forgive when he left your mother and you for another woman? And how has this affected you own love life and that of your sisters?
David
Is this an application to become my biographer? You can send references, and I'll think it over.David
A better version on the website I designed: http://www.cornetsdegroot.com.Thanks for joining me in spamming this blog.
Coen
I'm not sure why this is not the time to be invulnerable.RHCdG
What do you admire more: your father's life or his work?David
Did you not read "Een wijze van lev/zen"?RHCdG
No, why?David
Why?New question then: *can* you read?
There are readers here who cannot read who gather around a writer who cannot write. And I am the fool on the hill, in need of medication.
RHCdG
Stop whining.Who is the biggest name dropper: you or your father?
David
Rest assured it won't be your name that I'll drop. You are one of those that likes to be around famous people. You can tell your mother now were in touch with RHCdG. She won't know me, but it will still impress her.As for you and me: I thought it was good. Did you like it?
Erratum
...that you were in touchRHCdG
I am glad you agree that you are a name dropper.Since you publish the work of your father on the internet, what do you admire in his work?
Arnon
Nowadays people who are invulnerable are boring and /or unimportant, the queen for example. Unless you want to be that way, you'd better be vulnerable. There is something to say for both sides. I've not decided yet what I am.[ Add comment ]
