Arnon

I have only had the pleasure of knowing Japan through the books of Haruki Murakami and he at least suggests that there is indeed a world to discover behind the facade (than again, Isn't that true for any facade ?) . Have you read any of his books?

Bram

I have read one book by Murakami, which I liked.

Racism, gossip and exchanging cultural clichés, can be quite funny, if applied with moderation. (People like A. Hitler took all the fun away).
Keep on rolling, Arnon.

Bright side: it is still ok if the cultural clichés nicely topped with racism, are PART of the conversation, and not THE conversation. This is possible too. I have had millions of these word exchanges people call talking, until I have decided to shut up, no more 'talking about my - personal, always, me, the representative of a country with millions of individuals!!! - culture' for me.
Murakami is fantastic, I wonder which book you read?

Haruki Murakami , Norwegian Wood page 107 : "People with a strong interest in a limited field came together in a limited spot and exchanged information understood only by themselves."

Me currently writing a novel about diplomats cannot help but respond to this, obviously. Being the daughter of a diplomat, I hated exactly waht you describe in the above to such an extent that I physically could not speak for 2 years. Now, being the wise woman I've become ;) and studying the way they function on the eve of their pension, I can't help but say - you know very well there's much more to it than that. Critiquing them on the basis of the way they engage in small-talk is a cliché, as much as a cliché as considering all writers to be intellectuals or every politician to be corrupt and all Americans fake. I hope, Arnon, I manage to write a novel that will transgress beyond the above cliché and perhaps even change your opinion. Besides, oftentimes they resort to small-talk and cultural cliches when they feel uncomfortable, this in itself to me would seem like a mechanism you would see right through. Perhaos you could consider some people might feel uncomfortable in your presence, especially if you're smiling gentlemanly when they know you're taking critical note.
We are all human, and are all trapped in behavioral patterns, some of those patterns are more pleasant than others.

Don't we all see negative cultural clichés in all the other countries while we take pride in our own cultural chlichés? The dutch are very tolerant, they have a great sense of entrepreneurship, they talk english all very good, they are all great soccerplayers etc. What sets people from one country apart from people in other countries if one cannot use cultural clichés now and then? Maybe the cultural attaché actually believed the cultural clichés to be true. But it's a well known fact among diplomats that cultural attachés are not the brightest among diplomats. Or is that a cliché?

Yes Ron, this is a cliché as it depends by what measures you judge whether someone is intelligent or not and what kinds of intelligence you are referring to. Social intelligence? Or the intelligence of someone who quotes Sartre?
My father was cultural attache, I never really doubted his intelligence. I do know he made quite a few artists happy though for funding their experimental cross-over music styles or modern dance antics, paying for their airplane tickets to exotic places in order for them to expose their work and ego's, or facilitate readings and subsequently dinners, this all having been at the pro-active request of that very artist, dancer, maybe even novelist.

Noa, I know it's a cliché, that's the point I was trying to make...

Yes, I figured as much - I even considered you may have been a cultural attache yourself.

Me being the daughter of an alcholic, and being abandoned at the age of twelve, cannot help but agree with this post.

@Margot, I'm confused - what exactly do you agree with?

My Japanese mother in Law

Arnon, I suggested My Japanese mother in law to read Getuyobi wa itumo buru. She followed my advise, and she said that she was very pleased after reading.
Unfortunately I never followed her suggestion to read Murakami.. Two years ago she gave me Kafka on the Shore for my Christmas but I never read it.

Ps: Grace Kelly finally died this morning. Maybe I'll advise blue mondays now for Hitchcock

Noa, that some diplomats tend to be very narrow minded. They look down on the 'locals' as the locals are their gardener, swimming pool boy or maid. Basically, in my opinion they live on the outskirts of reality and they do their best to keep it that way.

@Margot, I don't read what you're saying in Arnon's post of today. Anyway, I hope the novel I'm working on (if I ever get it done...) will shed a different light and lead you to draw some simple conclusions. It's always easy to make assumptions based on the exposition of vanities, behind these vanities lie a lot of tragedy. Have you personally know any diplomats?

@Margot, correction, I didn't mean 'simple' I meant 'new' conclusions. Simple was still in there as part of a sentence I had deleted.
I am currently in the house of a diplomat who married a person you call 'a local', by the way (she was his housekeeper in a previous posting).

Noa

I worked at the Dutch Embassy in Jakarta.
Indonesia was great, but I really didn't like the life of a diplomat. You basically have no private life and are always 'that person from the Embassy', even during weekends. In the end, all I could dream of was getting drunk in public.
I'm looking forward to reading your book.

@Margot, I hope you'll still remember by the time it's finished. It will take a while, maybe even years. Would you be interested in meeting when I'm back in Holland? I like to hear as many different stories as possible from 'inside'.
By the way - I've been drunk alot these days too. Because I am as critical as I am defensive.

Noa, I'm not sure. Let me think about it and I'll get back to you.
Please note that I won't be sharing all the juicy parts because I'm saving them for a novel about bureaucrats and their sexlife.

Margot, that's fine ;) I'm writing a pretty sexless novel myself. Why are you afraid people will steal your ideas by the way?

No, I'm not afraid. Bukowski said not to talk too much about what one is writing as it takes the juice out of the fruit. Now I'm going back to Murakami before I turn into a namedropper.

@Margot, you give Bukowski too much credit. Besides, it took him 20 years to publish his first novel (well, he had published before but then resorted to drinking and working in a post-office because it hadn't been much of a success). Nothing wrong with an exchange of thought if you ask me. Anyway - I asked you to share your experiences with me, not your novel.

Margot = ....

MARGOT, it suddenly dawned on me that I think I know who you are. And if I'm right, we've even had a beer together in the past....

Noa

I am absolutely sure we´ve never had a beer together.
Or I must have been so drunk that I cannot remember.

Clichés are a common thing. As long as there's an openness to let prejudices be invalidated.

The evironment one is born in can play an immense role in the development of one's character, though. It's very well possible that i would have been a big macho if i would have been born in a Brazilian ghetto.

@Margot, yes, I think you were drunk. It was in Bangkok.

@Pablo, chances are you'd still be the same Pablo. You'll only pretend to be a macho when exposed to outsiders, but inside your own gang - you'll be ths soft spoken person you are. Pablo of the people...

Noa

Behind many mass murderers one can find a personal tragedy as well.
Do you know anybody without a personal tragedy?

Noa
Is it possible to win a battle of the toughest by merely pretending to be tough?

Arnon
Everybody has personal tragedies, but luckily only a few pay them forward.

@Arnon, no I don't know anybody without a personal tragedy, exactly my point.
I just spoke to a US marine based here and found the comparison between a soldier and a diplomat to be quite striking. Let me quote him - "no matter to me maa'am who my president is. We're supposed to do as we're told, that's what we signed for, for our country. The moment we start thinking, problems come."
Would you compare soldiers and diplomats to mass-murderers?

Noa

Aren't we all diplomats?

Noa

And think of the poor pharmacists, selling medicine to anybody who comes in with a prescription. They are like diplomats too.
(A small footnote to Oscar's comment.)

Except that pharmacists have access to every drug they could possibly imagine. Don't worry Arnon, I share your scepticism concerning the way diplomats function. The thing is, these past few weeks all I've been hearing from everyone I speak to is the same criticism, and it's always argued by saying "it's OUR money that put them in that apartment of theirs, it's OUR money that's paying for that maid..." and I just get so tired of hearing this (from Dutch journalists to entepreneurs, they all complain about the same). And so I find myself defending it with useless counter-arguments such as "but come on, where's the fun? Where's the sparkle? Would a Spaniard say the same?" Of course, nobody agrees - especially not the Dutch people abroad who aren't even paying any taxes in Holland anymore. And so I use the other no-brainer - "we are all humans." Arnon, I hold you to much higher esteem than those journalists and enterpreneurs who sit around beaches drinking beer and complaining about each other, so of all people I'm hoping you should be able to tell me something new (about diplomats in this case).

Noa

I have nothing against diplomats, but I don’t have much patience for trite remarks about human suffering.

@Arnon

And I don't have much patience for writing in clichés about clichés.

Noa

You seem to think that diplomats are a minority facing an awful kind of racism. Let me tell you, they are not. This post, to avoid misunderstandings, was not about diplomats ,it was about a woman who happened to be a diplomat.
It’s a thin line between being sensitive and being embittered.

Arnon, stop twisting my words! No, I don't think diplomats are a minority in the sense of racial issues - I'm well aware one still chosoes to become a diplomat whereas one cannot choose to be Chinese. It was you who brought up racism. I was only reacting to the subtext between your lines which readers (read Margot as an example) pick up on. My reaction was partly based on a culmination of various of your entries regarding diplomats which further build on Het Aapje (which I loved by the way), and all I'm saying is that it's a cliche which I find a pity because it's so easy. I shoulnd't have confused things by referring to my personal connection to diplomacy as that was beside the point and exposed me a little too much. Anyway, this is all a pointer though because it seems it's the cliche people (ie: an audience) ultimately want confirmed. Enough said, it's not really worth arguing, this entry has shifted my thoughts a little- for this I thank you.

Noa

To say that all Japanese are empty behind their façade carries the seeds of racism. Whether it is a diplomat who is saying this or a housewife is not very much important. (One could expect a diplomat who spent some there to do better. Maybe.)
Most diplomats, certainly most Dutch diplomats, are privileged people.
The post was about cultural clichés, not about diplomats.

Well then we might actually agree on something - not only Dutch diplomats, the Dutch in general are an extremly priviliged lot. Don't kill the messenger.

rss saves me

I'm so glad you have an RSS feed with the actual text of the blog. This fancy website drives me crazy. Sometimes I want to read the comments, but you make it so painful I rarely bother.

Do you ever wonder what we say about "the Dutch"? I'm not talking about what you (Arnon) hear us say about the Dutch, but what gets said when you're not in the room.

do you know what french humorist Pierre Desproges said? "one can laugh about everything, but not with everyone"
sorry for the bad english, for those who want to have some joke about french cultural clichés, especially the way they speak EN, i must say that i'm belgian :-)