Maybe losing is giving god the middlle finger.
Can losing be an act of rebellion?

@Pablo, I say winning is an act of giving God the middle finger, and when facing a gun, ask the guy holding it for a beer (in every language, including Chinese).

Pablo

Not trying to win, losing, giving up can be an act of rebellion. As long as you not force others to give up as well it can be even decent.
Why do you want to give God the middle finger Pablo?

Arnon

Well, I did not necesseraly want to give him the middle finger, but now that you metion it :o) I was just thinking... if he doesn't want us to lose, as you said, then losing is going against his will and (metaphorically) giving him the finger. Let's see if he still doesn't want us to lose if he is getting the middle finger.
A little rebellion is a good antidote for dullness and staleness. If it backfires, then so be it. Two thumbs up for the middle finger!

Some would say Jesus was a loser, others may say he is a winner. One day someone will say God wants you to win, the other day he will say, God wants you to lose; whatever. God’s many interpreters are as unpredictable as governments, they simply want to be obeyed. And as the ancient Greeks already knew, all tyrants want to be obeyed by people who claim to be totally free.
Nevertheless nowadays, to be a loser can be considered an act of rebellion, if not against God, at least against the general mood of today’s society.

Arnon

You invoked the name of God, but what you wrote is intensely human(e).

(Loser & rebellion
Of course, seen from the point of view of a middle class Caucasian male.)

Wasn't it Jesus who said: "don't reciprocate evil with evil?
Or as the Buddha teaches: You cannot fight hatred with hatred. You only can fight hatred with love.
Is that pragmatic or realpolitik?

God wants us to procreate, that's why I decided not to.
Society needs us to reproduce. F*ck society.
God is nothing else than societies 'schaamlapje' to tell us what to do.

Mieke

Fuck society? How old are you?

Mieke

"Schaamlap" is fig leaf.
Do you like figs?

Helen

Please tell Buddha and Jesus to come up with a better answer for people who are being shot at.

@ Noa

If you ask a guy (or a woman) pointing a gun at you for a beer, you 'll probably get a Duvel, no matter the language.

Mieke

What makes you think God wants us to procreate?
I think you have misunderstood his message. God wants us to be happy, regardless of our family planning.

Margot

A few years ago some young fellas thought that God wanted them to fly passenger aircraft into a 110 storey building. How can you be so sure what God wants? If God wanted us to be happy why the tremendous guilt trip? Anyway, would you really want a happy God? All this stuff going on down here and God's up there happily laughing - I don't know if that would be very comforting thought.

We should all read The God Delusion

Carlos

I agree that God is abused for many political agendas. In my opinion, in an ideal situation your relationship with God should be like your sexlife: you keep it to yourself. Terrorists can be compared to exhibitionists, flashing their genitals at inncocent passers-by.

Arnon,
Not for people who are shot at , but for people who shoot is it a suggestion . I cannot ask God or Buddha. I cannot make a connection.. Unfortunately!

@ Rutger

What else is God than a set of rules? What is the difference between giving God the middlefinger and saying "F**ck Society"? In my vision there is none. What else is morality than a set of values imposed on us by society? Even worse, most values originate from a male dominated society. So maybe I should have said: "F**ck Man". But isn't that what most man hope for? Being fucked?
Let's say I am proud that I am a happy,single 45 year old , very reliefed that I don't bear any responsibility for a child.

é Arnon

A fig leaf doesn't carry in it self the connotation of shame like "schaamlapje" does.

@ Margot

What makes you think God wants us to be happy?

@ Rutger

By the way, I hope to become an 80 year old one with grey , curly hair, who his still saying, by her artwork of course: "F**ck Society"

Mieke

Same reason why parents want their children to enjoy life.
You should read Gary R. Renard.

@ Mieke

Interesting point. But do you really believe there's no difference between god and society?

Most men hope what you hope for (I hope): being loved. Love society. Love men. Love women. Love even god, if you want to. Just give it the odd middlefinger now and then to point out the aspects you loathe. If a piece of pie has turned bad, there's no reason to throw the whole pie away. Unless you've come to detest pie, of course.

@Mieke

Mieke, I'd like to ask you a question and would really appreciate if you could email me, I need some insight on something I think you may know a few things about -
mail@aliefka.com

Mieke

I would argue that the word “fig leaf” carries the connotation of shame.

@Helen
Jesus and the Buddha state nice principles. But, in Realpolitik it sounds like “Defend yourself with all means and then ask God for forgiveness”. God cannot expect more from us, poor creatures.

@ Aliefka

miekedutoit@yahoo.com

@ Pablo

You touch my heart.

Mieke, Arnon

As an English native speaker I have to agree with Arnon that "fig leaf" does carry the connotation of shame. "Fig leaf" comes from Adam and Eve in Genesis when they became ashamed after Eve ate the forbidden apple. I've always wondered why figs are involved though. Why not an oak leaf or a palm frond? A banana leaf would be most effective. There must be someting special about figs.

Margot

I don't think Mohammed Atta was "abusing God" for his political agenda. I think Atta thought : God wants us to be happy, when the Caliphate is founded and all live by God's word peace and happiness will reign on Earth. I find your belief in a benevolent parent-like God rather odd in the light of human history. I think you would have a different view of God if you lived in Iraq, Darfur, Gaza or Chechenya. I think you would think "God doesn't want us to lose".

Jan,

I agree. The collective Ego can be very powerful, but is it effective ?

@Helen
I only know God or the Collective Ego or whatever you call it (?) can be overwhelming at certain times (like near dead experiences, drug sessions, or under other extreme experiences like torture).

Jan,
I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough. In my opinion the "collective ego" is a group of people ( nationalists, hooligans, economic group or whatever) who think their rights are the most important , feel easily attacked and need to defend themselves .. This seems to me the cause of many fights and wars. Words of Buddha or God can relativate a big ego.

@Helen
Indeed an ego, or a powerful collection of ego’s can be very disturbing and fascinating too, as long as you are under their spell (than is why so many of these groups never let you alone to think and wonder around – a 24/24 h and 7/7d economy + never ending publicity is the greatest achievement of the new totalitarianism, almost like some religious groups)

Jan
You're right I suppose. How can you make people aware of this mechanism? Maybe it can stop unjustice and miscommunication because I don't know intense bad people an I've seen lots of prisoners. People just spread hatred out of fear their group doesn't get the most benefit. But isn't it so you can light otherpeople's candle with your own without losing the intensity of your own light?

@Helen
If I were a priest, I would say, You have my blessings.

answers of buddha and jesus

about- answers of J and B when shot at.
The answers of Jesus and B. are just right. But not within reach for everybody at any given time. In clear moments though many people realize that if you are not messing things up at all you can bless any event happening to you.
This could be labelled idealiistic or not real-psychology. Because something is out of reach doesn't make it less true.
It appeals to a lot of things, not the least individual egocentrism, so that can be done easily.

If you are shot at.