So, one could say that a golddigger as a lover is not that far away from real love. And probably at least as entertaining.

There are some nice moderate gold diggers too. If you are interested, let me know.

Love probably has its genealogical origin in opportunism, but it grew, as an idea, independent and in the end in conflict with opportunism.

At least she's honest and still very Russian.
I myself have more of the American mentality, I think.

Mieke

Would you say , being the unmistakable female that you are, that for women love (in the romantic sense) is necessarily connected with protection?

Dries

I can only speak for myself, but feeling protected and safe is an important aspect of love for me and this always to my own amazement .

Dries

What's so unmistakable female about me?

he he. Your name gave it away.

Dries

Shit, I thought you would give me the perfect definition of what a woman makes a woman . I don't mean physical but in a mental way. Most definitions I've read so far are for me impossible to live with.

Mieke, I will try to find a definition. It will probably take me a few years to come up with it.

@Mieke
I would say, women really know how to give compliments. In ‘kissing’ you almost killed me ;).

Jan

Arnon is even stronger than I am in giving compliments and he is definitly a man.

Jan

Wich did you take as a compliment? The reciprocal one or the small is beautiful.

The richest men are often the cheapest, isn't that's how most of them get rich?
I prefer a lot of love to a lot of money, even though the last one is less likely to dissapoint you. They both lead to a different kind of comfort. When these two types of comfort are matched, I've heard them to be very hard to preserve.
I no longer really care for either of them, a point of view which is definately harder to establish when it comes to love. In fact - as opposed to money - it is my weakness that I can't always maintain it.
'Don't fall in love' - as stated in an earlier post - is mostly easier said than done.

Once you have some money, there are always golddiggers that turn up around you. There is little comfort in that. Mostly they are masters in manipulating you.

@Mieke
The small one, of course.
Reciprocity is not a joke – it is very rare and precious. (A lot of men and women like to dominate or be dominated)

Jan T

I can appreciate moderation, but I'm not sure what to make of a moderate gold digger. If you go for a gold digger, take a real gold digger I would say. Or are you suggesting, as Irina did, that you can never be sure? You think it's love, in reality it's gold digging?
We all need our illusions don't we?

Dries

What is the opposite of opportunism?

No money no love

My mother always says that there cannot be love if there is no money meaning that even if people do or did love each other the problems of living with few money will kill all love. And she is Dutch.

I hate it when someone hurts my toe. Mostly it's me hurting my own toe. Me and my toe are too far away from each other.

What your mother is really saying, Lila or LouLou, is that without money there's no certainty. Of course there can be love without money, sometimes there's more love at places where there's no money than otherwise.

gold digging

You never can be sure. Maybe Irina is right. But stil, not everybody you encounter is one. I myself had already several times golden opportunities. Extremely wealthy men crossed my path and yet I still said no ,for a lot of different reasons, but looking back, what really matters to me is the sincerity of the emotions of the man in question. Now I live with relatively little money, but I am at ease with myself( because of my artwork). I don't think I am the exception.

@Arnon
A moderate gold digger is like a good environmentalist. He or she takes with moderation and shows some respect, maybe some love.
As a Thai girl said to me, “I love a man with a good heart, because a man with a good heart gives me some of his money”.

@ Mieke

Isn't the idea about there being more love without money a romantic idea of the poor? As if the poor are more real, more authentic than the rich?

Sorry

My comment was directed @ Dens.

Maybe we need to define what love is.
Is love having babies, having sex? Ethiopians have a lot of babies and therefore a lot of sex. I am poor and have virtually none, no babies either. Oh well, maybe I'm not really poor, but oke.

Maybe love is the thing you 'd like to cut your leg off for, or die for. Would you die for love, Lilapelouza?

Lila and Dens

Love has little to do with wealth, I think. And that 's good, because it means it can be obtained by both. I pity the world in wich only one of the two classes can get it.
For me personally, love is in the first place still a state of mind. It 's in the mind that there is that exchange of energy, friendship, support and other things. It even has little in common with sex, although I think that (mental) love contributes highly to the experience of exchanging bodily fluids.

No Denziwenzy I wouldn't die for love. I am too old for that.
I am speaking about the love between husband and wife (or between partners living together) with or without kids.
I agree with Mieke. Of course love is possible in every category of the population. But the stress of worries about money (and the arguments that this creates) can kill love.

Lila

Doesn’t it make sense to die for love when you are old and sick?
Or would a Werther of let’s 87 not only be implausible but also unromantic?
When is the last moment you would say you could die for love? What's the border? 25? 35? 40? 18?
Are there different rules for men?

Jan T

My astrologer told me on April 18 2008 that my Thai period would start when I’m 64 and not a day earlier.
Do you happen to know moderate gold diggers who are NOT from Thailand?

@ Lila
Maybe one day you wake up and realise that love is something worth living in stead of dying for. Really, dying for love won't benefit anyone, in fact it leaves a lot of mess to be cleaned up by the loved one(s). Is that what you consider to be love?

@Arnon, @Jan

@Arnon and @Jan - before I trade my place at the Secret Reading with a (relatively) moderate and fabulously sparkly gold-digger friend of mine with an even more exotic accent than Irina's, let me get one thing straight: are we to assume that you are gold-diggable? Or was Irina speaking hypothetically?

Oh, yes, it does make sense to die for love when you are old and sick.
A Werther of 87 is plausible and utterly romantic. Maybe he thinks of his death coming closer and wanting to be young again. Or wanting to live the love for his death wife again.
I am speaking for myself, at this precise moment in my life. I have known the feeling of wanting to die for love several times in my life. I live with one of these loves. Out of experience I know that I get over every break-up. Although another break-up would hurt a lot, I know there is a life after. This knowledge is not very useful to me because I truely think that I will stay with my partner for the rest of my life. Maybe this is the utter romantic idea. To answer your question Arnon, the border is very personal. Some people never learn.
The rules for men and women are the same. Although the men I know have a much more romantic idea of love and relationships than the women I know. The women tend to be more practical.

Lila

Did you ever contemplate killing your lover instead of yourself? If not, why not?

@ Arnon
Did I read your entry well enough: is Irina stating that American men cheat less, since they are so cheap? If so, what is the connection between the two? Does she mean American men are not likely to pay for a mistress?

Noa

For all I know I’m a starving author. Actually I’m trying to become a gold digger myself. Nevertheless please send a picture of your gold digger friend to Johannes. True love might open many doors.

Jeanette P

Yes, according to Irina, cheap men don't cheat because a mistress is expensive.
For a woman the choice is between stinginess and faithfulness.

Jan T

Is Noa right? Are you looking for a moderate gold digger? You told us about the size of your penis, but what else do you have to offer?

@Arnon

But wait a minute - if you don't have any gold to offer, you'll have to at least throw something else in (brains won't do for this woman, she's too smart herself). May I suggest a green-card or how about you saying you're dependent on her as your muze? Something like that. Otherwise you'll have to settle with me coming to the Secret Reading.

Arnon,
What are you starving for the most: love or money?

@ Arnon

No, I never thought about killing my lover because I never thought about killing someone as a possibility. Of course 'to die for someone' is not to be taken litterally. To me, it is the feeling of your heart and your body that hurts so much you cannot eat anymore, you cannot think of someone else anymore. The feeling you cannot live your life without that very special person.
And now I am going to sleep.

I think many women dig for gold in the salt flats. But it's important to know that they might not be looking for money at all. There are many things that gold can symbolize . Hopefully, if digging in salt flats, they are big lovers of salt.

Noa

I can only repeat what I said before: beauty can open many doors .

Jeanette

The answer to your question is something you can figure out yourself. I hope.

Arnon

opposite of opportunism? (i was speaking about opportunism of the individual.)
mmm... something like self-abnegation? the willingness to squander whatever it is you possess for something other than yourself?

@ Denziwenzy, Lilapolouza, others

Shouldn't the question 'would you die for love?' be: 'would you give your life for love?' Thus, if you could save a loved one by giving yours, would you do it.

Die for love... Another interesting phenomenon to me is, but maybe not so easy to understand for people who are not inclined in that way, to stay alive because of love. think of someone who wants to die but remains alive because he/she doesn't want to hurt the one he/she loves. if there is need of proof for the reality of altruism, for me that's the proof.

@Arnon
1.Not all the gold diggers I happen to know are Thai.
2.Is your astroger Paul McCartney
3.If you are not impressed with the sheer size of my penis and my fabulous sense of humour, then I have nothing more to offer now.

@Noa-Arnon
Not so much gold to find in my pocket.

@Pablo
I think, ‘to die for a beloved one’ is an act you commit on the spot, without much thinking beforehand.

Pablo

that's exactly what it should be. A life, or an arm or an eye. Love is of course a sickness of the mind. Let's say you're standing on a piece of rock and suddenly the rock breaks off and you're bound to fall into the deep. Luckily, your kid is standing there and nothing else. No trees, no benches, and no trafficsign. Would you grab hold of you kid to rescue yourself or not? You're most likely to do so by instinct, although this 'll probably mean that you'll drag the kid with you.

Instincts tell us to preserve ourselves, not our loved ones. Be it so?

Jan T

Forgive me if I jump to conclusions, but do I hear you right, do you make yourself available for intimate encounters with me and my girlfriend?

@Arnon
Helaba, I know you too well. You like to mock with my penis and be horrified by my sense of humor, are you not? Or is it the other way around? Do you think I am an old goat to walk around with? You naughty young man!

@Noa
Maybe it is not because of something you did (to Arnon). Maybe it is simply because you are available, available to the real game, like the all rest of us, Arnon included.

@Noa
Sorry wrong place again – see ‘Laughing’.

Jan T

You know me too well?
We never met.
What is it? You don't like me? Or you don't like my girlfriend? I appreciate honesty.
Are you an old goat?

Dens

Instinct can be a kick in the nuts sometimes.

@Arnon
Of course I like you, otherwise I would not be here.
And you can meet or live with somebody and yet be fooled by him or her.
So ‘I know you too well’ is more or less a hyperbole, dot you think.

Read ‘… don’t you think’

But I swear, if you dare to appear on the Secret Meeting in that horrible attractive transvestite outfit, I will behave as an old goat.

Jan

What? You are going to the Secret Meeting without me?
Do you have a date?

@Margot,
Did you not know? Please Read my Gmail I send to you.

Jan T

Are you coming to the reading?
My girlfriend said last night on the phone: “Jan Thys is the only sane commentator on your site.” I really think she likes you.
But now I’m afraid you are too old for her.
And I’m not sure if she is attracted to men who start speaking about the size of their penis without invitation to do so.
But please don’t take this last comment personally.

Arnon

Sorry for the impertinent question, but isn't there quite an age difference between you and your girlfriend? Once a woman falls in love with an older men she can easily fall in love with an even older men. Ten, twenty or even thirty years is then of little importance. She already likes him, you never know and I'm sure Jan even has other assets.

I must say I'm quite sane as well.

Mieke

Nine years. You call this an age difference? Needless to say: I don't mean she is nine years old -- I mean the age difference is nine years.
Have you ever met Jan Thys?

@Arnon
Too old, ah the cruel twist of time; once I was too young, now I am too old. Same old game.
And, as I say to Noa, what a fuzz about a penis … maybe we, men, should wear the koteka like women wear their bra. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koteka).

@Arnon
Do you not know who was invited? Is-this Secret Meeting, also a secret for you?
Sorry Dens was too late due to a misunderstanding, he would have liked it, that I am sure.

Arnon

I thought the gap to be bigger. nine years is a futile detail.
No, I haven't met Jan yet, but I like his gentle sense of humour.

Jan

While bra's primarily are meant to support, kotekas are designed to impress.
Sorry, but same twist.

Jan T

To be honest I have been told who will come to the secret reading but I have forgotten it. You struck me as somebody who prefers to stay a mystery man forever.
That’s why I asked.
I don’t mind jejune behavior, at least not always, and the size of a penis can be a beautiful topic (do I need to remind you that I wrote a novel about this?) -- but I was a little bit surprised about the effect of this question posed by this little teaser called Monica.
And the absence of reflection on male anxiety was not a very hopeful sign.

Monica, the prick-tease. Quite literally

@Arnon
Mockery is sometimes a sign of (mal) anxiety too.
Now let us leave the penis in peace.