Arnon

Reliability to me is a combination of all the things you list in your response under the "Laughing" post, or at the very least that a person will strive for all these things to the best of his or her abilities and for the long run. Ofcourse financial security is part of that package too, at least it is for many women. Yes, you are right, most women are financially independent these days. Or make that: most unmarried women. Sadly many of them are all too willing to give that up the minute the possibilty arises. But anyway, it's a free country; no judgement.

Don't overestimate the extend to which society approves of women "fooling around" by the way. The double standard with regards to fooling around stands pretty firm, at least it does here in the US. In most Hollywood movies I know the heroine may appear to be fooling around in the beginning, but often very innocently, never with too many men and inevitably ending up with " The One". If you know of examples from popular culture that revolve around untroubled kick-ass bachelorettes: let me know about them...

Last but not least: there can be many reasons for me to go and have coffee with someone, but that person's perception that I need "help" is not one of them. This is New York; if I had the idea that I needed help with certain aspects of my life I would probably see a shrink. So far I have never had the idea that that was necessary; I think I am capable of handling the struggle's of my (dating) life by myself. Ofcourse this might change, never say never. And thank you for your kind offer.

What makes you think that a sweetcopy editor might be a suitable option for me, by the way? Is my english that bad?

Yes, another mister Goodbar story about punished women.
Love is: someone who cooks my food, washes my socks and underwear, cleans the house and teases me into sex, finally she can bury my dead body.
By Jove, I need a lot of help.
(By the way, I experienced it again, the best sex is not when I care about my pleasure, nor about my partners pleasure, it is when we imagine a third person watching, like we are making a performance for somebody:… a child? God? Or a poor devil who has nobody … - there is some truth in the Pope’ advise after all, of course not entirely how he has imagined it).

Jan

Please, enlighten me. What was the Pope's advice? Wich Pope? The current one or the previous.

According to a review ( of the book) the professor has a fetish for the breast wich symbolise the failure of the man to engage in a more deep , emotional relationship with the woman. Maybe this element was made clear in the film?

was= wasn't in last sentence

Punishment

In the presence of certain men breasts are a punishment.

@Mieke
Generally speaking, all the Pope’s advises are that you do not do it for your own pleasure but for a bigger cause. The pleasure is only a side effect granted. And the Pope is always right.

Eva

It seems to me and to many others that an unfaithful woman is now more accepted than ten twenty years ago. The example always given is “Sex and the city” – I haven’t seen the movie or the series, but it might be a convincing example. I think I can give other examples.
Needless to say that a man fooling around is still more accepted.
Think by the way of the movie “Notes on a scandal” –the makers of this movie clearly sympathized with the heroine who is fooling around with an under-aged (!) boy.
You speak about New York as if the city is one big cliché.
Come on darling -- do away with your pride.
For me the male copy editor is a symbol of reliability.

Jan

On a psychological level doesn't an advice like that provokes an opposite reaction? In casu for the men that they aren't able to perform, for the women that they don't want the act to take place. For me it restrains the 'free will', the element wich makes us adults, and it takes the pleasure out of the act.

I was just reading some Wiki on Danielewski, the author, and wiki says the following which interested me:
"While writing THAT, readers were asked on Danielewski's discussion board to send in their reply to a list of questions pertaining to famous or personal events, their favorite car, animals they respected, and plants that "made them stop", presumably to gather specifics for the book. Several of the forumites' responses were ultimately used in the book."

I've thought about the notion that this blog has a same purpose, but I guess we'd be informed about that, wouldn't we?

@Mieke
For many years I was not able to ‘perform’, now that ‘I can’ I must admit that the ‘performance’ has not much to do with my will (free or not), more with intention, imagination, moods and circumstances.
On the contrary the advise ‘you must enjoy’ or ‘you must make your partner enjoy’ are real downers too. Maybe when we forget about ourselves, we enjoy the most …

By the way, now that my mother has gone, it becomes already difficult for me to recognize how she once looked, the days before she was ill. Maybe when we die, we simply forget about ourselves (not such a big loss though).

Dens

Does this worry you? As far as I am concerned, Arnon may use what ever he wants. As long it makes a good story and that it is well written.

I'm not sure yet if it worries me. It might, an it might not.

@Mieke
Why are you so concerned about the possibility of Arnon using us on this blog. Are we not using each other, our environment or even Arnon himself for whatever reason?

Jan

It doesn't worry me, in that sense I am not concerned., I think I would be flattered.
And yes I agree, the moment we start an interaction with our environment there is often an element of use involved.

@Mieke - weren't you yourself once planning to make an art-work inspired off this blog? Or was that Hanne? Whichever way, here's a great documentary amde by a dutch man based on the same principle (he was addicted to a flickr community) as an inspiration - it's great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T96iguDjDB4&feature=PlayList&p=23D6E417B63C6044&index=0

Noa

I think it was Hanne.
Thanks for the link.

Arnon

Sex and the City is the best, and probably one of the very few examples here. Quick update on how these four ladies end up; one gets married (to a man who first stood her up on the altar once), two get pregnant and the fourth and most promiscuous one gets breast cancer. And turns 50 at the end of the movie. And ends up single. Single by choice, I would like to add. I'll give the writers that. (sorry for all the spoilers... Luckily enough this series is probably too lowbrow for most of the readers of this blog anyway) If you ever decide you might want to watch some Sex& the City: just stop in the middle of season four, because it starts going downhill from there.

The male copy editor as symbol of reliability? With the direction the publishing industry is headed?! Mmmm. Most of these Symbols of Reliability are based in India or on the Philippines nowadays, and they sound pretty docile. Call me choosy, but while dull " is already a bit of a problem , I find "docile" completely unacceptable.

Eva

The latest Woody Allen-movie is another example.
I have never said that popular culture is spreading the message that fooling around is the way to happiness – I said that popular culture got used to the idea that women might be interested in fooling around.
I’m not aware of the fact that copy-editing has been outsourced.

Actually I think, at least in Holland, society is far less sexually tolerant now than it was in 1988. A new puritanism seems to have infected the country. But also in the US, the religious right and "family values" have come to dominate society in a way not foreseeable in the roaring '80s.

Coetzee's Disgrace

The combination of typical male fantasies and self-pity is awfull. When I started reading Coetzee's Disgrace a couple of years ago, I thought: Dear God, not another book about a professor struggling with his age and his gorgeous student lover. I still don't particularly care for that part of the book, but Coetzee did manage to reflect on this issue in interesting ways. At some point, the professor works in a animal shelter where he has to kill dogs that are unwanted. He cares for the dogs. The dogs are healthy and there is no reason for them to die, but nobody wants them anymore so they are 'put to sleep'. He doesn't moralize that fact. It's just how it is. I read the treatment of the dogs as a wonderful metaphor for the professor's own desires. So in the end, he moves beyond self-pity.

Michel

Personally, I saw the fate of the unwanted dogs as a metaphor for the (according to Coetzee) hopeless position of the disgraced and unwanted white South Africans. In the end the Professor's daughter has to choose between becoming African or returning to Europe. Incidentally JM Coetzee has since joined the exodus of white South Africans by emigrating to Australia. I personally don't share Coetzee's doom and gloom visions of post-Apartheid South Africa, or at least I choose not to.

By the way, it is still standard procedure in South Africa to "euthanize" stray dogs and cats if they are not claimed within a certain period.

Michel

David Lurie cannot be compared to David Kepesh.

Arnon

I didn't read "The Dying Animal", so maybe this question is pointless, but I'm curious: why can't they be compared?

Michel

As you might have read I have only seen the movie, but “The Dying Animal” is not Roth’s first novel in which David Kepesh is the main character. Coetzee’ sensitivity is completely different from Roth’s, besides David Lurie is not suffering from self-pity.

Arnon

Why do you think that David Lurie wasn't suffering from self-pity? My feeling was that he is full of it. What he doesn't show though is any remorse.

Carlos

Could you give evidence of Lurie's self-pity.

Arnon

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book available right now. (I gave my copy to my father a few years ago. ) But I think one needs to look no farther than Lurie's insincere grovelling (literally) before Melanie's father Mr Isaacs. From a psychological point of view one could also argue, I think, that it is Lurie's self-pity that prevents him from responding adequately and unselfishly to any of the challenges and ordeals he faces in the book. Lurie is a man who chooses to wallow in his own self-dislike, rather than attempting to change his circumstances and prospects.

Arnon

Like Carlos, I also had a sense of Lury's self-pity when I read the book. It starts out with this lamentation about how he was rejected by his regular prostitute. That set the tone for the way I read the book. Not that the self-pity is very strong and it probably is much less prominent than in Roth's book. (Of course I agree, they are very different writers.)

I read a borrowed copy of Disgrace at the time, but have felt the desire to re-read it, so a minute ago I ordered my own copy. Once I have it, I'll see if there is any "evidence" of self-pity. I love looking for evidence. Of anything, really.

Carlos

Why do you believe that David Lurie does not react adequately?
Do you expect characters to react adequately?
If they don’t react adequately to their challenges is this proof that they suffer from self-pity?

Michel

Is it a sin to be in love with a prostitute?
Is somebody who is in love with a prostitute not allowed to mourn when the relationship comes to an end?
Or do you argue that love is not involved in this relationship, are you saying that the exchange of money for sex excludes love?

Arnon

I don't see what love or sin have to do with self-pity. Sure, he mourns over the loss of the relationship with the prostitute, which is perfectly understandable. I guess I'm wondering where mourning ends and self-pity begins. Or, to focus on another of Coetzee's sensibilities, where self-deprecation ends and self-pity begins.

I have to admit that my tolerance for self-pity is very low, especially my own. That might make me overly senstive and lead me to hashly dismiss someones mourning as a form of self-pity. I need to re-read the book. It should be here by Tuesday.

Michel

You wrote: “It [“Disgrace”] starts out with this lamentation about how he [David Lurie] was rejected by his regular prostitute.”
This lamentation was for you proof of his self-pity.
Is the statement that you have little tolerance for your own self-pity not proof of self-pity?
For what else do you have little tolerance?

Arnon

Yes, Lurie's lamentation is sort of evidence, but I wanted to check the text more precisely to see whether there would be clearer signs or whether I'm lumping any form of grief or sorrow under the heading of self-pity. I'm analyzing myself more than the text, undoubtedly, but that is inevitable.

You wrote: "This lamentation was for you proof of his self-pity."
Nice observation. You are undoubtedly right. My low tolerance is probably related to the need to repress it. So it signifies the presence of self-pity rather than its absence.

Excuse me while I take a minute to adjust my self-image.

Okay. I do want to add that I'm a believer in the virtues of repression, especially in this area. One searches for consolation wherever one can find it, I guess.

Finally this question for you: How's your tolerance for self-pity? Whether your own and that of others.

Correction

I quoted the wrong sentence from your reply. This is what I wanted to refer to :
"Is the statement that you have little tolerance for your own self-pity not proof of self-pity?"

I've now watched the movie. I haven't read the book. Somehow I have a deep feeling that the movie just wasn't Philip Roth. It was directed by a woman. It seemed to be about love rather than sex. Perhaps this is what most women want to believe about men.

I did like Ben Kingsley's acting. He did fall back into a very English (not British) accent a few times. He may have done it on purpose, but possibly the Spanish director didn't notice.

For the record

I got a chance to reread the first three chapters of Disgrace. I have to admit there was no trace of self-pity on the part of David Lurie at all. In fact, I was struck by his forwardness, if not outright agression, in pursuing first the prostitute and then the student. In my first reading I did not notice the almost nonchalant agression. Must have read it in a very different state of mind. Perhaps prejudiced by thinking I was encountering two literary cliches: relationships between client and prostitute and between professor and student.

In any case, my point about self-pity was wrong.