Arnon

who are those men on the picture? why are their pants so low?

Muffin Tops

Some people really like muffin tops. Generally, though, they're probably not the people the muffin tops themselves would hope to attract.
Do people dressed badly have deranged self-images that need correction or are they a sign of a healthy disdain for society's version of the Beautiful that we must simply endure in order to live in more or less free societies? Or some combination like they don't care what you think of their bodies but they wouldn't want to be caught dead in unfashionable clothes?

To Arnon

I would argue that it's quite a way from simpathy to admiration.

It was in column (by nature a letter) in Humo/Het Parool that you said (something you, I believe, repeated in a conversation with Wim Noordhoek) that people who fail in in their previous attempts to succes tend to politics.

In this particular letter you addressed yourself to Wouter Bos urging that the Netherlands shouldn't redraw it's troops from Afghanistan.
I believe (but - as you wrote elsewhere - the memory is of course a machine producing fairy tales) you added to that that you didn't quite understand why a man such as Wouter Bos, given his qualities, was active in the Netherlands' national politics.

Does this reconstruction strike you as peculiar?

Pjötr

I cannot recall this letter. Johannes, do you happen to have this letter to Bos?

Pjötr

The remark that I cannot grasp why somebody with Mr. Bos's qualities would enter politics must involve some irony. This does not imlply that I believe that Bos is worse than most other (Dutch) politicians.
How did this subject come up again?

Arnon

No.
It was published in January 2007 I just read in Wuijts's bibliography.

PS

I have read it back then and I don't think it was as sympathetic to Wouter Bos as Pjötr has interpreted it.

To Arnon

Mieke wondered about your political preferences. I referred to 'De Stemwijzer' and your letter to Bos.

Apparently I occasionly fail as a reader.

Arnon

I searched and found the letter to Bos in my archive.

I also remember the column about Bos in Humo. I remember it was full of irony towards Bos as a manager and as a politician.

Pjötr

As long as Arnon isn't a radical right winger - and he isn't -, I don't really care what his political preferences are.

@Mieke, would you agree that radical left is just as bad (and aggressive) as radical right?
I rarely catch Arnon loudly voicing his own opinions about something, usually he exposes and questions and in doing so sometimes critiques or condones which is not the same as a clear cut opinion- or at least this is my understanding of his pieces.

Johannes

Could you send me a copy of the column?

Arnon

Yes, no problem.

Noa

The difference between the extreme right and left is that the latter is virtual nonexistant any more, while the first gained 25% of the votes in Flandres. That's one in four.
But I agree, Arnon rarely gives a clear cut opinion. I vaguely remember that column in Humo adressed to Bos. There was so much irony involved that you hardly can think of it as an 'hommage' .

Johannes

Thanks!

Mieke

There are plenty of opinions already. Most of them consist of platitudes and resentment.
I do happen to agree with Pjötr that those who are in need of (political) directions can find directions in (some of) my columns. The letter to Mr. Bos was not exactly written in homage to his political activities. That's true.
Are you in need of directions?

@Mieke, the latter (extreme left) may be outnumbered by extreme right, but their actions have quite an impact. I haven't recemtly seen extreme right kill any politicians the same way Fortuyn was killed (by en extreme leftist). And the extreme left likes to do things like burn cars of people who work for companies that have some link to animal testing, forcefully squat homes, stifle honest discussion and so on.

Arschgewei

A German friend told me that in German, a type of tattoo on the lower back of a woman which is usually revealed by droopy pants and/or a short shirt is called an "Arschgewei".

Oscar

"Arschgeweih"

Manon K.

I've seen both spellings.

Arnon

If your directions enable me to explore new horizons and thus come to a deeper understanding of the human folly, I'll gladly take them into account.
Only fools renounce to advice.

In general I really miss the point why people would show their underpants or share muffintops (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=DyO-z_7Ip9c) , while moving around in public. Especially the Dublin scene seems to be into it....Maybe too much Zaytoons? http://www.dublinks.com/index.cfm/loc/8/pt/0/spid/9FC9487D-DAAB-407B-945AD1C4CB6DB761.htm

Lies

Thanks, I never go to Zaytoon. But now I know where I can find the place. In case I'm hungry after 2 am.

I suffer from an innate and very awkward inclination to pull up my pants, zip my fly and buckle my belt after leaving the toilet, as opposed to doing it before. Luckily, so far, this has only caused ridicule and no moral outcry.

Oscar

The one without h is wrong.

Noa

The extreme right have tactics that I consider to be very dangerous.
What I am now going to tell you, may sound as the story of a mental deluded woman, but, alas, I experienced it more then once and for me it was a situation I have to live with.
How much do you know of group energy, dynamics and groupthinking? In extreme right circles they use it as a strategy to influence and mentally work on people. Remember I come from their group, maybe that's why I am so aware of it. What they do is double:
1)Within their group theydo it to make the group stronger. If everybody thinks the same they function better.
2)External they use it to put pressure.
What does this means? It means that from time to time I feel how they work on me with their combined energy and more I hear them think, argue and if I refuse to agree , their threats. From time to time I experienced so much mental harassement that I almost couldn't handle it any more. They consider me a dissident in their midst.
It's like a mental war is being fought and I am in the middle of it.
I consider the mind much to private to like these tactics.
I can assure you , Philippe Dewinter isn't a nice man to have in your head, his accomplishes are even worse.

@Mieke - forgive me, I didn't know you had been a member of an extreme right group/movement. Your descriptions sounds like the clockwork behind any cult - what interests me is what aspects you (initially) found appealing?

Noa

I was raised in it. I didn't know any better and it was only later I realised how they where influencing me.

Noa

You call them a cult, but they are in fact a strong political party with a still -untill recently- growing group.

@Mieke, no I meant it sounds like they work the same way a cult works, and in that sense I can imagine how powerful 'the forces of the group' must be. Were your parents members of the extreme right?

Noa

My father was a member of the SS during the war. He remained a flemish nationalist for the rest of his life.
Five years ago I started an somehow internal investigation of how extreme right is organised in Belgium, how they function and what they think. For that purpose I returned to their group, something I wouldn't recommend to anyone.

Manon K.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'm quite proud of my poor command of German.

@Mieke - ever considered writing about those experiences? I'm intrigued. Or maybe Arnon can be embedded in the Flemish extreme right for a while, I'd certainly read what he'd write about it.

Noa

One of the threats was that they would find me if I do write about it. They scared the hell out of me. But I am afraid that my writing skills aren't good enough to give a nuanciated picture.
Writing here about it, is an option that is open.

Noa, (&Mieke)
What Mieke says does make a lot of sense, since I was raised in a similar, but left wing family. The used methods are always the same, just as in religious cults. Moral, physical and psychological violence (sometimes even rape is used).
You don not life in a family at home, you live in a fortress or in a dungeon.

Sorry for the above typo’s – the subject tends to upset me.

Bernard/ Noa

Thank you for believing me.

@Mieke, Bernard - I hope to mee you both some day and have a few beers with you. Mieke, I'm sure you've considered the dramatic notion of a love affair between the daughter of an SS officer and the son of someone who survived Auschwitz. Goodness, I'd almost want to start writing that story muself! Anyway, perhaps this could help you as a fictional way in to your life story. That's the key - just tell those creeps whatever you're writing is fiction.