Arnon Grunberg

High

Days

Thore Schröder interviewing Israel's former foreign minister Tzipi Livni:

‘Livni: I think the entire international community, and especially the Arab countries, the U.S., and maybe the United Nations, should think about an interim solution. The Gaza Strip is a territory that nobody really wants to rule – not even Hamas by the way. It does not want to be the government, just a military force.
DER SPIEGEL: Such scenarios don’t appear to be getting any serious consideration these days.
Livni: There are discussions, but I’m not sure whether they have reached any conclusions. I'm sure that the U.S. is thinking about it. I also want to explain why it is so important to eliminate Hamas: We have the experience of Lebanon. At the end of the Second Lebanon War in 2006, we reached an agreement with the international community in the form of a UN Security Council resolution. Hezbollah was to dismantle its weapons, and power in the southern part of the country was to be transferred to the legitimate Lebanese army. And an arms embargo against Hezbollah was implemented.
DER SPIEGEL: The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) was supposed to put a stop to arms smuggling to the Iran-allied Shiite militia.
Livni: Now, we have Hezbollah on our border again with many arms that came from Iran. It’s important that this is not repeated in Gaza.
DER SPIEGEL: Civilian casualties in Gaza have been extremely high. How many dead civilians can Israel accept? How many can the international community accept? Livni: It’s not a question of numbers, but a question of the efforts that we are making. In order to avoid or to minimize civilian casualties, we have asked them to leave the north, the places where Hamas is hiding. But Hamas is using civilians as human shields.
DER SPIEGEL: Many Palestinians in Gaza are afraid of being uprooted again.
Livni: We are not asking Palestinians to leave Gaza, just to temporarily leave the places where Hamas is operating.’

(…)

‘Livni: Firstly, I think that Netanyahu's term is, in a way, over. He will not stay. Secondly, Israel is a democracy, and unfortunately these people were elected. Still, during the demonstrations in recent months, a new camp of liberal democrats has been established. At first, many didn't want to touch the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but now, I think it is better understood that it’s all connected. Unfortunately, after October 7th, it will be very difficult to convince Israelis to support peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
DER SPIEGEL: The issue of peace was already largely ignored by the vast majority of Israelis over the past several years.
Livni: We have had five rounds of elections in just a few years, and indeed, the conflict was not on the table.
DER SPIEGEL: And then it blew up.
Livni: It blew up in the most horrific manner. Unfortunately, many Israelis will conclude that we cannot live in peace with the Palestinians. I, on the contrary, believe that if we don’t solve this conflict and divide the land, the reality will be even more problematic. My goal will remain for us to have a secure Jewish democratic state. And if we don’t have a partner for a while, we will still need to stay the course, not lose sight of the goal. We didn’t have a strategy for Gaza because we lost sight of it.’

Read the interview here.

The conflict was not on the table, the hubris of Netanyahu was the hubris of too many Israelis.

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